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View Poll Results: What are your beliefs about the millenial reign of Christ?
It is a literal reign of 1000 years to happen in the future 8 42.11%
It is a literal reign of 1000 years that is happening now 0 0%
It is a literal reign of 1000 years that has already happened 1 5.26%
It is a symbolic reign that has not happened yet 0 0%
It is a symbolic reign that has already happened 0 0%
It is a symbolic reign that is happening now 4 21.05%
I don't believe in the millenial reign at all 2 10.53%
I don't know 4 21.05%
Voters: 19. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-25-2008, 02:13 PM
 
1,836 posts, read 4,451,486 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cg81 View Post
Thank you for your post, Simple Living.. alot of it I agree with. The kingdom of God has arrived. I agree also that when Jesus returns, God's plan will be complete... and the kingdom of heaven will stand forever in eternity. What I don't agree with is that there will be any kind of literal reign of God/Jesus on earth. Do you have scriptures other than in Revelations (and preferably in the New Testament) that would depict this?
But Jesus departed and we're not with Him. He left the Holy Spirit as the promise that He would return. We are not yet in the fullness of that promised Kingdom. Right now we have the promise and the assurance of it. A scripture reference from the NT would be Matthew 19:28. Jesus' promise to the apostles that one day they would “sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." That would be meaningless apart from a literal, historical restoration of Israel.

An earthly millennial kingdom is the only consistent interpretation of Messianic prophecy. Gospel records show that a large number of Bible prophecies were literally fulfilled in Jesus' lifetime. (Born in Bethlehem, rode into Jerusalem on a donkey, the 30 pieces of silver, and many, many more.) No one suggests that these predictions were symbolic spiritually. There are other equally specific and detailed predictions about Jesus (like His establishing an eternal throne over the kingdom of David) that were just as obviously not fulfilled during Jesus’ earthly ministry. So, to deny the idea of a literal Millennium is to say that some of the OT prophecies were literal and some weren't. That position assumes arbitrarily that all prophecies not literally fulfilled by the NT times are supposed to be spiritualized.

Then take into account that a literal, earthly kingdom would be the best way for Jesus to prove that He's the supreme King over His creation. How could He verify that His rulership is superior if He doesn't have an earthly kingdom to rule over? Yes, God can do anything and He doesn't have to prove that, but is that His way? No, because God proves Himself. He wouldn't just say, "Well, people really messed it up down there but, trust Me, if my Son had ruled, it would have been a perfect rule." What better way of proving Himself to be the supremely just King than by personally handing out justice to His subjects? How better could He prove Himself to be the infinitely merciful Lord than by personally showing mercy to His subjects? To do those things He would have to have an earthly kingdom, because in heaven there is no need either for justice or for mercy.

A perfect millennial kingdom will testify through eternity that Jesus is the supreme, sovereign ruler, who alone can bring absolute peace and harmony to a world, even while it's still infected by sin.

Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:24-25, that when it's all said and done, Jesus will deliver “up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power” and that “He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet." What other kingdom could that be but an earthly kingdom? The Father already possesses the heavenly kingdom. The Millennium can't refer to the church in a spiritual kingdom form because the kingdom Jesus presents the Father with includes His enemies which were made subjected to Him. There aren't any in the redeemed church and your enemies aren't subjected to you if they're all killed in battle (Battle of Armageddon.) They will be in the earthly kingdom and made subject to the rule of Jesus. It will be a kingdom in which Jesus has exercised complete authority, and He hasn't done that yet.

Quote:
Another question I have: If the kingdom of God has arrived as you mentioned, are we not in the 1000 year period of time right now?
Not the literal kingdom, no. Just as with the OT believers thinking they would see a literal kingdom, so did the NT saints when Jesus arrived. But, they didn't know of God's future plans.... us. God's plans include everyone. We can see that now because we have the Word in it's full, complete form. And we have revelation knowledge from God.

What confuses me is how you see this time, right now, as the Millennial Reign. I'm trying sincerely to understand that. Scripture says that Jesus will reign with an iron fist and that the saints rule and reign with Him in glorified bodies. Those scriptures are unmistakable. We've all but made God illegal in this country, as well as around the world. Christians are being persecuted and killed for their beliefs. Evil reigns right now. How is this the Millennial Reign of Christ? I'm not trying to debate or badger, truly I'm not. I'm trying to see this from your viewpoint as you've been gracious to try to view mine!

Quote:
I'm finding a little contradiction here, but maybe I'm misunderstanding you. You say that the prophets of the OT were looking forward to a literal reign.. but that they were mistaken. Why then do we still take some of the OT scriptures to refer to a literal reign?
They weren't mistaken about a literal reign, it's their timing that was off. (Understandably, so. Who wouldn't want Jesus to set up a literal reign in their lifetime?) But it wasn't going to happen in their lifetime. God's plan for them was for Moses to deliver them from their oppressors and the promise of the coming Messiah. They didn't have the fullness of the scriptures, or the revelation, that we have today. The literal reign is for our lifetime, after the Second Coming of Christ.

And, I think I answered this question above. (I hope!)

One last thing. According to church history (which, honestly, is not my favorite subject, but I'll study it for it's confirmations) pretty much shows the orthodox teaching of a literal earthly kingdom from NT times up until about the middle of the 3rd century. It was around that time that "allegorical hermeneutics" was becoming fashionable and the interpretation of a literal kingdom was swapped out for a spiritualized one. That's the church history portion of this, so take that as you will.
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Old 06-25-2008, 02:30 PM
 
1,836 posts, read 4,451,486 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DayoftheLord View Post
Okay!!! I am constantly astounded at your knowledge, clarity and ability to put it into words. Thank you so much for spelling this out for me and others as well. I see the difference between the theories and beliefs now. All I have to do now is study and figure out which one I might subscribe to. But I have to admit, without doing any study and in relation to what I already know or believe, your last paragraph sounds plausible to me. There's not enough time in the day (or this life, for that matter) to do it all sufficiently and in a timely manner, so this may take a while.

I can't think of a better way to spend my time, though.
Good! LOL I'm glad I might be able to help! All I did was put time into studying it. I really can't take any credit because it just started with being fascinated with fantasy and science fiction before I was saved. (More fantasy than sci-fi.) So, when I was saved, naturally the end times were of huge interest to me. Over the years, as I matured, I learned to combine my study with prayer and studying church history and learned how to interpret scriptures using scripture, instead of coming up with what it sounded like it meant to me.

Not to mention that I'm a geek! I love to study and do research. LOVE IT! And I love to write. I recently lost my job in Corporate America (which was FINE by me - the soul-killing industry that it is.) I was talking to a friend of mine the other day saying, I wish I could find a job that would let me stay home, do research and studying and writing! That would be my dream job! But, that's beside the point to me. If God asked me to move to Sheridan, Wyoming and pick lint up off of office floors for a living, that's what I'd do. (And there wouldn't be a speck of lint anywhere to be found.) Because that's all that matters to me. Period. That God be glorified and I don't care what my part in that entails, I'm going to do it with joy!

Part of me believes that God directed this time for me spend studying His word and being in prayer. I honestly feel that our time is short. But, part of me hopes that the Lord will tarry because there's so much work left to be done and I want to do all I can before Christ returns.
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Old 06-25-2008, 03:03 PM
 
3,086 posts, read 5,656,226 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simple Living View Post
But Jesus departed and we're not with Him. He left the Holy Spirit as the promise that He would return. We are not yet in the fullness of that promised Kingdom. Right now we have the promise and the assurance of it. A scripture reference from the NT would be Matthew 19:28. Jesus' promise to the apostles that one day they would “sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." That would be meaningless apart from a literal, historical restoration of Israel.
Israel as God's people will never be restored. We are Israel.

"For there is neither Jew nor Gentile..."

Matthew 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
Galatians 3:6 ¶ Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

OT prophecy is full of language talking about this time we are in, when all nations shall seek the Lord. This means that the gospel is open to everyone.

Quote:
An earthly millennial kingdom is the only consistent interpretation of Messianic prophecy. Gospel records show that a large number of Bible prophecies were literally fulfilled in Jesus' lifetime. (Born in Bethlehem, rode into Jerusalem on a donkey, the 30 pieces of silver, and many, many more.) No one suggests that these predictions were symbolic spiritually. There are other equally specific and detailed predictions about Jesus (like His establishing an eternal throne over the kingdom of David) that were just as obviously not fulfilled during Jesus’ earthly ministry. So, to deny the idea of a literal Millennium is to say that some of the OT prophecies were literal and some weren't. That position assumes arbitrarily that all prophecies not literally fulfilled by the NT times are supposed to be spiritualized.
Yes, a king was to come, to be born in Bethlehem. This statement does not say, however, the nature of His kingship. Jesus was very clear, even rebuking the disciples that His kingdom was a different sort from what they were imagining. Have you taken time to read over the many scriptures I referenced in the "Kingdom of God" thread that speak about His kingdom? From none of these do we have any indication that it is a physical kingdom.

Quote:
Then take into account that a literal, earthly kingdom would be the best way for Jesus to prove that He's the supreme King over His creation. How could He verify that His rulership is superior if He doesn't have an earthly kingdom to rule over? Yes, God can do anything and He doesn't have to prove that, but is that His way? No, because God proves Himself. He wouldn't just say, "Well, people really messed it up down there but, trust Me, if my Son had ruled, it would have been a perfect rule." What better way of proving Himself to be the supremely just King than by personally handing out justice to His subjects? How better could He prove Himself to be the infinitely merciful Lord than by personally showing mercy to His subjects? To do those things He would have to have an earthly kingdom, because in heaven there is no need either for justice or for mercy.
Jesus is proving this to each one.. and its up to each one to decide. At the final judgement, justice will be meted out.. until then, it will appear that "the wicked triumph".

Quote:
A perfect millennial kingdom will testify through eternity that Jesus is the supreme, sovereign ruler, who alone can bring absolute peace and harmony to a world, even while it's still infected by sin.
He is doing this right now! We as believers testify to this! We are living and reigning with Christ over sin, "in the world, yet not of the world." We are free.. we are at peace. Jesus alone can bring this.

Quote:
Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:24-25, that when it's all said and done, Jesus will deliver “up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power” and that “He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet." What other kingdom could that be but an earthly kingdom? The Father already possesses the heavenly kingdom. The Millennium can't refer to the church in a spiritual kingdom form because the kingdom Jesus presents the Father with includes His enemies which were made subjected to Him.
The kingdom Jesus presents to His Father are those who have been washed in the blood of the lamb, and have entered the kingdom in this way. At the end of time, the judgement, all will be under Jesus' feet.

Quote:
There aren't any in the redeemed church and your enemies aren't subjected to you if they're all killed in battle (Battle of Armageddon.) They will be in the earthly kingdom and made subject to the rule of Jesus. It will be a kingdom in which Jesus has exercised complete authority, and He hasn't done that yet.
This is contrary to the gospel message of "whosoever will may come". God will never force anyone to be made subject to His will in this life.. altho at the judgement, no one will have a choice but to go where He tells them.


Quote:
Not the literal kingdom, no. Just as with the OT believers thinking they would see a literal kingdom, so did the NT saints when Jesus arrived. But, they didn't know of God's future plans.... us. God's plans include everyone. We can see that now because we have the Word in it's full, complete form. And we have revelation knowledge from God.
We can't see anymore than the disciples could see after pentecost. They could see the whole plan of God..

2 Thes 1:5 ¶ Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you:
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Verse 5 talks about "the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer". This was something that they were experiencing (and we all experience.) It goes on to talk about the end of the world and judgment, everlasting destruction on those who do not believe.

Quote:
What confuses me is how you see this time, right now, as the Millennial Reign. I'm trying sincerely to understand that. Scripture says that Jesus will reign with an iron fist and that the saints rule and reign with Him in glorified bodies. Those scriptures are unmistakable. We've all but made God illegal in this country, as well as around the world. Christians are being persecuted and killed for their beliefs. Evil reigns right now. How is this the Millennial Reign of Christ? I'm not trying to debate or badger, truly I'm not. I'm trying to see this from your viewpoint as you've been gracious to try to view mine!
We have never been promised to have a time of physical prosperity and a life free from sin on this earth. Like you mentioned, it is unmistakeable that Jesus ushered in the kingdom of God... and thus, we are already in the era of His reign. He is reigning in our hearts! We can reign over sin and have peace in our hearts. Reigning over literal enemies is of little importance. It may appear that evil reigns, but God is in control. His grace available to us right now is much stronger than the evil around us! Once again, the numerous scriptures in the NT about the kingdom of God speaks of this what we are experiencing.

Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Of course, we will be able to see the kingdom of God in it's fullness in eternity. There we will have glorified bodies, and not be hassled by sin and satan. We are not promised this on this earth.

Quote:
One last thing. According to church history (which, honestly, is not my favorite subject, but I'll study it for it's confirmations) pretty much shows the orthodox teaching of a literal earthly kingdom from NT times up until about the middle of the 3rd century. It was around that time that "allegorical hermeneutics" was becoming fashionable and the interpretation of a literal kingdom was swapped out for a spiritualized one. That's the church history portion of this, so take that as you will.
Yes, there were some that believed in a literal kingdom, but also the spiritual kingdom teaching was there from the beginning. It didn't take long for the Christian church to have alot of opposing views, unfortunately!
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Old 06-25-2008, 03:13 PM
 
3,086 posts, read 5,656,226 times
Reputation: 968
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simple Living View Post
An earthly millennial kingdom is the only consistent interpretation of Messianic prophecy. Gospel records show that a large number of Bible prophecies were literally fulfilled in Jesus' lifetime. (Born in Bethlehem, rode into Jerusalem on a donkey, the 30 pieces of silver, and many, many more.) No one suggests that these predictions were symbolic spiritually. There are other equally specific and detailed predictions about Jesus (like His establishing an eternal throne over the kingdom of David) that were just as obviously not fulfilled during Jesus’ earthly ministry. So, to deny the idea of a literal Millennium is to say that some of the OT prophecies were literal and some weren't. That position assumes arbitrarily that all prophecies not literally fulfilled by the NT times are supposed to be spiritualized.
One point I missed, Simple Living.. I mentioned in another post the scriptures in Isaiah 61 that Jesus referred to in Luke as "this day is the scripture fulfilled in your ears". Do you believe that these verses in Isaiah 61 refer to any different time than other scriptures in Isaiah? It talks about "the captives being set free" etc.. do you take this literally?

(and btw, I enjoy discussing this rationally with you!)
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Old 06-25-2008, 06:55 PM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 9,994,935 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simple Living View Post
Good! LOL I'm glad I might be able to help! All I did was put time into studying it. I really can't take any credit because it just started with being fascinated with fantasy and science fiction before I was saved. (More fantasy than sci-fi.) So, when I was saved, naturally the end times were of huge interest to me. Over the years, as I matured, I learned to combine my study with prayer and studying church history and learned how to interpret scriptures using scripture, instead of coming up with what it sounded like it meant to me.

Not to mention that I'm a geek! I love to study and do research. LOVE IT! And I love to write. I recently lost my job in Corporate America (which was FINE by me - the soul-killing industry that it is.) I was talking to a friend of mine the other day saying, I wish I could find a job that would let me stay home, do research and studying and writing! That would be my dream job! But, that's beside the point to me. If God asked me to move to Sheridan, Wyoming and pick lint up off of office floors for a living, that's what I'd do. (And there wouldn't be a speck of lint anywhere to be found.) Because that's all that matters to me. Period. That God be glorified and I don't care what my part in that entails, I'm going to do it with joy!

Part of me believes that God directed this time for me spend studying His word and being in prayer. I honestly feel that our time is short. But, part of me hopes that the Lord will tarry because there's so much work left to be done and I want to do all I can before Christ returns.
Well, I guess that makes me a geek too! Sorry to hear you lost your job and I couldn't agree more with the corporate America thing. Ugh. You know, you could turn your talents into writing....why not? Maybe that's exactly what God has in store for you. I doubt very seriously it's to be a lint picker. But I know what you're saying, I'd do whatever He wanted me to do too, no matter what it was.

And I know God has given you this time to spend studying and being in prayer. He did the same for me and provided a way for me to be able to afford to do it. Why? I believe He wanted me to be prepared for the coming months by studying and praying and getting as close to Him as I possibly can.

Although I believe the rapture will be happening soon, I believe there are some things that we will have to suffer through, even believers, before He does come and we need all the spirtual strength we can get to help others. And I believe a big part of gaining that spiritual strength and spreading the gospel is what is being done right here on this forum. But the real life situations will be the test.
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Old 06-26-2008, 10:03 AM
 
Location: USA
322 posts, read 656,124 times
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I recall 2 or three years ago being at a discussion forum where there was an ongoing debate between pre-mils and A-mills. At that time I was firmly of the pre-mill interpretation. It went on for days and days and became unfriendly and finally the moderator steped in and pulled the plug. But it was at least a learning experience for me. Some of those folks knew more Greek than I began to know and it was very educational.

So I can really apreciate this topic and also the good manners you all have demonstrated, especially considering how dogmatically I sometimes approach a subject being discussed. The Love of GOD is to always be the rule between Christians, even when we fail to momentarily agree.

The topic of this discussion is "The millenium after the return of CHRIST". Since I no longer believe that interpretation, it would be impossible for me to partake in specifically that. But here's something that is valuable for biblical study and interpretation.

When in the military, I participatied in a training exercise to demonstrate the importance of accuracy when passing on an order to someone. A written order was given to one to memorize, then to pass on to another. Each person would repeat the order to another. The last person then wrote the order on paper (there were five people in the exercise) and that was compared to the original order. The resulting order, (to our surprise) was much different than the original one.

When interpreting scripture, this same sort of thing can potentially happen. All scholars agree that the only place in the bible stateing "the milleniall riegn" is in the Revelation. My position is that over the years a misunderstanding has developed.

Suppose a sports writer covering the NFL draft wrote the following statement: Bill Jones will play with the Atlanta Falcons for five years.

Many years later a sports historian writes the following statement: The Atlanta Falcons played for five years and Bill Jones played with them.

Many years later someone else writes: The five year saga of the Atlanta Falcons included Bill Jones.

Later, the thinking becomes: The great five year era of the Atlanta Falcons...

The later statement has little to do with the simple statement that began as only a refference to the fact that Bill Jones signed a five year contract with the Atlanta Falcons.

It is my position that the original statement in the Revelation concerning the saints reigning with CHRIST, was never intended to be a new doctrine about a new earthly era to take place after the second advent of CHRIST, but became misunderstood over time by some, just as the fictitious example above.

Last edited by joedrsaved; 06-26-2008 at 10:40 AM..
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Old 06-26-2008, 10:18 AM
 
3,086 posts, read 5,656,226 times
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Originally Posted by joedrsaved View Post
It is my position that the original statement in the Revelation concerning the saints reigning with CHRIST, was never intended to be a new doctrine about a new earthly era to take place after the second advent of CHRIST, but became misunderstood over time by some, just has the fictitious example above.
This describes my thought exactly.. thank you for putting it into words!
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Old 06-26-2008, 11:52 AM
 
Location: NW Arkansas
3,978 posts, read 7,617,892 times
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I could post my thoughts on this, but both joedsaved and Cg81 have done an excellent job of covering it. I am in complete agreement with them.
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Old 06-27-2008, 09:32 PM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 9,994,935 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joedrsaved View Post
I recall 2 or three years ago being at a discussion forum where there was an ongoing debate between pre-mils and A-mills. At that time I was firmly of the pre-mill interpretation. It went on for days and days and became unfriendly and finally the moderator steped in and pulled the plug. But it was at least a learning experience for me. Some of those folks knew more Greek than I began to know and it was very educational.

So I can really apreciate this topic and also the good manners you all have demonstrated, especially considering how dogmatically I sometimes approach a subject being discussed. The Love of GOD is to always be the rule between Christians, even when we fail to momentarily agree.

The topic of this discussion is "The millenium after the return of CHRIST". Since I no longer believe that interpretation, it would be impossible for me to partake in specifically that. But here's something that is valuable for biblical study and interpretation.

When in the military, I participatied in a training exercise to demonstrate the importance of accuracy when passing on an order to someone. A written order was given to one to memorize, then to pass on to another. Each person would repeat the order to another. The last person then wrote the order on paper (there were five people in the exercise) and that was compared to the original order. The resulting order, (to our surprise) was much different than the original one.

When interpreting scripture, this same sort of thing can potentially happen. All scholars agree that the only place in the bible stateing "the milleniall riegn" is in the Revelation. My position is that over the years a misunderstanding has developed.

Suppose a sports writer covering the NFL draft wrote the following statement: Bill Jones will play with the Atlanta Falcons for five years.

Many years later a sports historian writes the following statement: The Atlanta Falcons played for five years and Bill Jones played with them.

Many years later someone else writes: The five year saga of the Atlanta Falcons included Bill Jones.

Later, the thinking becomes: The great five year era of the Atlanta Falcons...

The later statement has little to do with the simple statement that began as only a refference to the fact that Bill Jones signed a five year contract with the Atlanta Falcons.

It is my position that the original statement in the Revelation concerning the saints reigning with CHRIST, was never intended to be a new doctrine about a new earthly era to take place after the second advent of CHRIST, but became misunderstood over time by some, just as the fictitious example above.
I understand what you are saying here, and this test has been done many times over the years in different scenarios. I like the ones done with kindergarteners....hilarious! There's even an oreo commercial with the same concept, which is very cute.

But this has to do with human error, not the perfect Word of God. Yes, there seems to be MANY different interpretations of hundreds of things in the Bible, but all premillenialists agree that this is as plain as day and requires no interpretation. Just because we call ourselves "pre" this or "post" that nowadays doesn't mean that these are new concepts or interpretations!! Putting a new name on an old idea is not new either.
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