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Where is the 1000 year literal reign in this parable? Do you believe it happens at the end in the "barn" (after the harvest, which you said happened at the end of the world)?
It's not referred to in this parable. This is where is all gets a little fuzzy. From what I understand in Revelation 20, the 1000 reign is after the harvest. Satan is bound for those 1000 years, and then after the 1000 years is released to wreak havoc one last time.
But I believe in the rapture, so IMO the minute the rapture happens the 7 year tribulation will begin. The harvest or end of the world....as we know it.....will come AFTER the end of the 7 year tribulation. THEN we live with Christ in the LITERAL Kingdom for those 1000 years.
What happens during those 1000 years is what I wonder about. I've heard people say that we will reign with Christ over those people who are still alive after Armageddon, which I can't grasp. I don't know, this one area I need to do more study on.
The reason I can't grasp it is BECAUSE of this parable and other scriptures. According to the parable, all the "weeds" will be gathered up and thrown into the fire. But then again, if there weren't people to corrupt during this reign, then why would Satan need to be loosed? See what I mean?
I don't know if we are even supposed to be able to figure out the chain of events. I just know that I try REALLY hard...probably too hard.
Oh, and I don't think the earth itself will be destroyed...just the surface of it. Since the Bible says it will be destroyed by fire.......but then again it also says that the literal reign will be on earth, so how can it be destroyed?
It's not referred to in this parable. This is where is all gets a little fuzzy. From what I understand in Revelation 20, the 1000 reign is after the harvest. Satan is bound for those 1000 years, and then after the 1000 years is released to wreak havoc one last time.
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The reason I can't grasp it is BECAUSE of this parable and other scriptures. According to the parable, all the "weeds" will be gathered up and thrown into the fire. But then again, if there weren't people to corrupt during this reign, then why would Satan need to be loosed? See what I mean?
Some of these questions are the reason I brought up this parable.. I'm sure you've read other parables where Jesus talks about His Kingdom, and many of them have the same setup.. a time where the kingdom is started, a time of working or proving, and then at the end of the world a time of judging.
I believe in "being caught up in the air" at the end of time, but this will be a public event, not a secret whisking away of the saints. This is part of the "gathering" process in the weeds & tares parable.. all were gathered at the same time and separated.
I don't think you'll find one reference to a literal 1000 year reign inserted in any parable about God's Kingdom... if you take a separate view of the kingdom mentioned in Revelations and the kingdom given such a prominent place in the NT (and the subject of many parables) then you are forced to try and figure your way around them ("the rapture comes between this sentence", "the 1000 year reign is between the harvest and the barn", etc.) But it all comes together with the view of a spiritual reign! There are no contradictions!
Some of these questions are the reason I brought up this parable.. I'm sure you've read other parables where Jesus talks about His Kingdom, and many of them have the same setup.. a time where the kingdom is started, a time of working or proving, and then at the end of the world a time of judging.
I believe in "being caught up in the air" at the end of time, but this will be a public event, not a secret whisking away of the saints. This is part of the "gathering" process in the weeds & tares parable.. all were gathered at the same time and separated.
I don't think you'll find one reference to a literal 1000 year reign inserted in any parable about God's Kingdom... if you take a separate view of the kingdom mentioned in Revelations and the kingdom given such a prominent place in the NT (and the subject of many parables) then you are forced to try and figure your way around them ("the rapture comes between this sentence", "the 1000 year reign is between the harvest and the barn", etc.) But it all comes together with the view of a spiritual reign! There are no contradictions!
I can't dispute the possibility of there not being a rapture.....but I can't ignore this verse either:
1 Thessalonians 4:17
"After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air."
This and the reference of a literal kingdom in Revelation are why I believe like I do. I think these scriptures are very clear and support the belief of a literal rapture and a literal kingdom.
Now let me ask you a few questions.
Do you believe that we are living in the 1000 years right now, or do you just not believe in the 1000 year reign at all?
So if you believe we are living in the spiritual kingdom of God right now, then what about the 7 year tribulation and the AntiChrist?
I'm just trying to understand exactly what you do believe and why.
I can't dispute the possibility of there not being a rapture.....but I can't ignore this verse either:
1 Thessalonians 4:17
"After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air."
I of course believe this to be true... it will happen at the end of the world as a universal and public event, which everyone will see. Look at the verse before it:
1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
He shall descend with a shout! Every eye shall see Him. This happening goes along with the following verses:
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Mt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mr 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
2 Thes 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Again, a very public event tied together with the Judgement at the end of the world.
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This and the reference of a literal kingdom in Revelation are why I believe like I do. I think these scriptures are very clear and support the belief of a literal rapture and a literal kingdom.
Just keep in mind, tho.. Revelations also talks about a literal dragon, literal chains, literal pit, etc. Both of us are taking some parts figuratively... it's just that we aren't agreeing what parts should be literal!
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Do you believe that we are living in the 1000 years right now, or do you just not believe in the 1000 year reign at all?
I believe that Christ is reigning, and we as believers are reigning with Him right now. Check out the following verses for example:
Ephesians 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: 18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, 19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us–ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
Christ's kingdom is alive and well, and is here right now!
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So if you believe we are living in the spiritual kingdom of God right now, then what about the 7 year tribulation and the AntiChrist?
There was a period of time in 70 AD where, if you read history, it seemed like God took vengeance on the ones who had been His People and who, looking for a Messiah who would literally reign and free them from the Romans, had failed to recognize Jesus. Revelations also talks about saints who have come through great tribulation, and I believe this could refer to many times in history (Inquisition, etc), even today in some countries, where people are cruelly persecuted for their faith.
As far as Antichrist, check out the following verses:
1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 2Jo 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
As these verses mention, there are and have been many Antichrists.. but there have also been periods in history where a certain person or organization has been especially focused on wiping out the Christians.. this title could stand for any one of these people.
I of course believe this to be true... it will happen at the end of the world as a universal and public event, which everyone will see. Look at the verse before it:
He shall descend with a shout! Every eye shall see Him. This happening goes along with the following verses: Again, a very public event tied together with the Judgement at the end of the world.
The 2nd coming will be a public event. But it remains to be seen whether the rapture will be public. I believe (just my opinion) that the rapture will coincide with a catastrophic event, and that's how the disappearance of millions will be explained.
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Just keep in mind, tho.. Revelations also talks about a literal dragon, literal chains, literal pit, etc. Both of us are taking some parts figuratively... it's just that we aren't agreeing what parts should be literal!
These are symbolic, that's obvious. Visions were given to John, that is why they are to be viewed as symbolic of Satan, the AntiChrist and what will happen to them. The story is literal, with symbolic descriptions. IMO, it's not too hard to figure out which is which.
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I believe that Christ is reigning, and we as believers are reigning with Him right now. Check out the following verses for example:
Christ's kingdom is alive and well, and is here right now!
I don't disagree with this. Christ is reigning in us, his saints. Christ's kingdom exists right now, but the literal, physical kingdom is not here yet.
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There was a period of time in 70 AD where, if you read history, it seemed like God took vengeance on the ones who had been His People and who, looking for a Messiah who would literally reign and free them from the Romans, had failed to recognize Jesus. Revelations also talks about saints who have come through great tribulation, and I believe this could refer to many times in history (Inquisition, etc), even today in some countries, where people are cruelly persecuted for their faith.
The Bible says clearly that history repeats itself, but there are specific signs of the end times that we are warned to look for. There would be no need for Revelation if all of these things had already been fulfilled. Plus, there would be record of the events in the Bible of fulfillment.
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As far as Antichrist, check out the following verses:
As these verses mention, there are and have been many Antichrists.. but there have also been periods in history where a certain person or organization has been especially focused on wiping out the Christians.. this title could stand for any one of these people.
The Bible is very clear that there is one AntiChrist. There have been many, many people throughout history who could be classified as "being" anti-Christ, as in against Christ. But they are simply anti-Christ....not "the AntiChrist".
Below are some excerpts from an article about the rapture from the following link: The Pretribulation Rapture
What is the Pretribulation Rapture?
The rapture is an event that will take place sometime in the near future. Jesus will come in the air, catch up the Church from the earth, and then return to heaven with the Church. The Apostle Paul gave a clear description of the rapture event in his letters to the Thessalonians and Corinthians.
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words." (1 Thess, 4:16-18).
“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality†(1 Cor. 15:51-53).
The timing of the rapture is not known. From the Word of God and from sound reasoning--something Jesus used quite frequently--I hope to prove the reality of the pretribulation rapture. The word “rapture†comes from Paul's "caught up" remark in verse 17. The words “caught up†are translated from the Greek word harpazo, which means "to carry off," "snatch up," or "grasp hastily." The translation from harpazo to “rapture†involved two steps: first, harpazo became the Latin word raptus; second, raptus became the English word “rapture.â€
Scriptural Evidence for the Pretribulation Rapture
The Unknown Hour
When we search the Scriptures and read the passages describing the Lord Jesus' return, we find verses that tell us we won't know the day and hour of that event. Matthew 25:13 says Jesus will return at an unknown time, while Revelation 12:6 indicates that the Jews will have to wait on the Lord 1,260 days, starting when the Antichrist stands in the Temple of God and declares himself to be God (2 Thes 2:4). This event will take place at the mid-point of the seven-year tribulation (Dan 9:27). Note that some people only see a three-and-a-half-year tribulation. In a way, they are correct because the first half of the tribulation will be relatively peaceful compared to the second half. Nonetheless, peaceful or not, there still remains a seven-year period called the tribulation. When the Jews flee into the wilderness, they know that all they have to do is wait out those 1,260 days (Mat 24:16). There is no way to apply the phrase "neither the day nor the hour" to this situation. The only way for these two viewpoints to be true is to separate the two distinct events transpiring here: 1) the rapture of the Church, which comes before the tribulation; and 2) the return of Jesus to the earth, which takes place roughly seven years later.
This article is what I believe wholeheartedly. It says all of the things that I cannot articulate. I would recommend going to the site and reading the whole article for more scriptural support and info.
There's a "rapture index" also on this site, which I thought was very interesting.
The 2nd coming will be a public event. But it remains to be seen whether the rapture will be public. I believe (just my opinion) that the rapture will coincide with a catastrophic event, and that's how the disappearance of millions will be explained.
Just to reply to one point:
1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
Is this talking about the "rapture" or the second coming?
1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
Is this talking about the "rapture" or the second coming?
All pre-trib rapture subscribers believe this is the one very clear scripture that speaks of the pre-trib rapture. If you read the article I posted, it explains and brings together how or why we believe what we do.
We believe that Verses 13-18 are speaking of the rapture, not the 2nd coming.
When the Lord comes (the rapture), He will be bringing with Him those who are already with Him spiritually. THEIR BODIES are what will be resurrected, before the saints will be "caught up". The bodies of the already dead in Christ will meet with their spiritual beings in the air to complete their transformation, and after that we that "are left" will be taken to meet the Lord in the air.
It's clear that this is not talking about the 2nd coming. The second coming involves Jesus actually coming to the earth.
All pre-trib rapture subscribers believe this is the one very clear scripture that speaks of the pre-trib rapture. If you read the article I posted, it explains and brings together how or why we believe what we do.
We believe that Verses 13-18 are speaking of the rapture, not the 2nd coming.
One thing I didn't catch until now, (and find significant!) is that you left out the last part of verse 17 "and so we shall ever be with the Lord".
End of story!
Read all verses pertaining to the second coming, and they tie together with this one. Jesus will come in the clouds, all eyes shall see Him, and everyone will go to their respective eternal destinations.
Read all the parables about the kingdom of heaven, and they tell you the same picture. The only reason why pre-trib milleniallists say the verses in Thessalonians are not tied with the second coming is to fit their dispensational theory, which is incorrect and, if I must say so, extremely complex! You are forced to place one scripture with one event, and an almost identical scripture with another event, based on a pre-concieved dispensational view.
The truth about this is simple.. really simple.
Jesus came to earth 2000 years ago, and ushered in His Kingdom.
The Jews were expecting a literal kingdom and thus did not recognize Him.(and many people are under the same false thinking today.. expecting something that will never happen!)
Jesus returned to heaven, and is reigning over all things, us as believers reigning with Him.
Jesus could return at any time in the clouds, the saints will be caught up to meet Him, everyone will be judged (not necessarily in that order.. this will basically be one big simultaneous event) and we will either be forever with the Lord in heaven, or forever apart from Him in hell.
The End!
(BTW, this is the view you can trace clear back to the apostle's time.. unfortunately, it doesn't sell as many books, tho!)
One thing I didn't catch until now, (and find significant!) is that you left out the last part of verse 17 "and so we shall ever be with the Lord".
End of story!
Wait a minute, CG.....I didn't leave anything out. I said verses 13-18....that covers all of 17!!! Yes, we will be with the Lord forever after the rapture!!!! When I quoted verse 17, I may have left it off, but that doesn't mean it's not important!
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Read all verses pertaining to the second coming, and they tie together with this one. Jesus will come in the clouds, all eyes shall see Him, and everyone will go to their respective eternal destinations.
It's easy to assume that, but some scriptures stand alone. It's not just because I want to believe it....it's what the scriptures say.
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Read all the parables about the kingdom of heaven, and they tell you the same picture. The only reason why pre-trib milleniallists say the verses in Thessalonians are not tied with the second coming is to fit their dispensational theory, which is incorrect and, if I must say so, extremely complex! You are forced to place one scripture with one event, and an almost identical scripture with another event, based on a pre-concieved dispensational view.
It's not about just the parables. IMO the parables are describing God's spiritual kingdom, but does not suggest in any way that a spiritual kingdom is the only kingdom. There will be a physical, literal kingdom to come according to scriptures.
It is complex, but that doesn't mean it's wrong!! All prophecies are complex and hard to understand....that's why it's important to get to the bottom of it. Because a certain way is an easier way to believe, doesn't make it right either.
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The truth about this is simple.. really simple.
Jesus came to earth 2000 years ago, and ushered in His Kingdom.
The Jews were expecting a literal kingdom and thus did not recognize Him.(and many people are under the same false thinking today.. expecting something that will never happen!)
The truth is simple, yes. The truth of Jesus Christ as the only way to salvation and to the Father. But delving into the Bible and understanding scripture is not quite that simple. You can't say with any authority or certainty that there won't be a literal kingdom. At the time Jesus came 2000 years ago, all were under the impression that He would be setting up his literal kingdom then. They misunderstood that He was here to die, and that the literal kingdom would come later. The spiritual kingdom is here, the literal kingdom is not.
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Jesus returned to heaven, and is reigning over all things, us as believers reigning with Him.
Agreed!
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Jesus could return at any time in the clouds, the saints will be caught up to meet Him
Agreed! The rapture!
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everyone will be judged (not necessarily in that order.. this will basically be one big simultaneous event) and we will either be forever with the Lord in heaven, or forever apart from Him in hell.
Agreed! After the 2nd coming, and during the white throne judgment that comes after the 1000 year literal reign!
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(BTW, this is the view you can trace clear back to the apostle's time.. unfortunately, it doesn't sell as many books, tho!
Maybe, maybe not. We don't know for sure what anyone believed or didn't believe. The apostles were looking for an immediate literal kingdom also. I already explained somewhere what I think about that.
But nowhere does it say anyone thought everything had been fulfilled in 70 AD. They were not as knowledgeable as the world is now! The Bible says that in the last days knowledge will increase, right?
The Bible says that in the last days knowledge will increase, right?
.. and iniquity will abound.
Unfortunately, this does not appear to mean sound spiritual knowledge, rather we are given warnings of rampant deception.
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so IMO the minute the rapture happens the 7 year tribulation will begin. The harvest or end of the world....as we know it.....will come AFTER the end of the 7 year tribulation. THEN we live with Christ in the LITERAL Kingdom for those 1000 years.
