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The teachings of such as Hal Lindsey, Jack Van Impe, Jerry Jenkins and others and those who follow them contribute to these unjust attacks.
I see a church today that is disengaged from the world around it. Many hope to simply "rapture" out and be done with it all. Do you not see a connection between the full-blown teaching of dispensational premillenialism and is escapist mentality and the condition our country today? The Church at one time had an impact on our society. Even Hollywood made its movies in a way that would not offend the churched!
Again, these issues are more far-reaching than I think you realize. We cannot simply agree to disagree when we are dealing with the words of Scripture! This is not about winning an argument as you have wrongly accused me, but about the veracity of Scriptures and the honoring of Jesus' words. I began this thread because I could not get any dispensationalist to deal with the actual words of the Bible! Furthermore, I am NOT trying to change the minds of those who are set in their beliefs. I am concerning about those who post and have their minds made up; I am seeking to correct their false teaching so that others who read their words will not be deceived by them!
Preterist
Joel 2, The Day of the LORD
28 "And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions.
29 Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days. 30 I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and billows of smoke. 31 The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.
How many days of the Lord are there? Joel say DAYS (plural) then uses "at that time". Is Joel also wrong? Correct understanding is that the destruction of Jerusalum is the example of the destruction of the world.
Knowing you will not agree, Peter proclaimed Joel 2 was fulfilled at Pentecost. Was that THE day of the Lord? If so, when has the sun regained its light and the moon no longer blood? When have the stars start shining again? I really would like to know.
Is "WILL" not just as clear as "THIS" "THAT" "NEAR"? The sun WILL stop shining, the moon WILL turn into blood, the stars WILL no longer shine, the righteous WILL shine like the sun.
How about the last half of this prophecy?
Joel 3
The Nations Judged
1 "In those days and at that time,
when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat.
12 "Let the nations be roused; let them advance into the Valley of Jehoshaphat, for there I will sit to judge all the nations on every side.
13 Swing the sickle, for the harvest is ripe. Come, trample the grapes, for the winepress is full and the vats overflow— so great is their wickedness!"
14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision. 15 The sun and moon will be darkened, and the stars no longer shine.
Peter preached that Joel's prophecy was being fulfilled on Pentecost. How could the prophet Joel say the day of the Lord is NEAR if it was fulfilled 780 years later? What did he not understand about "NEAR".
If all the prophecy's were fulfilled in 70AD as you claim, can you tell me were the valley of Jehoshaphat is? According to Wilkpedia "
Now we have "ALL NATIONS"( "multitudes, multitudes") being gathered on the day of the Lord which is "NEAR" (NEAR means NEAR doesn't) in a valley that never existed that Peter says is fulfilled 780 years later.
Joel is another example of when a prophecy can contain two lesson points about two different time events, in this case Pentecost and the end of the world. Jesus does the same thing, one prophecy two lesson points about two different events, destruction of Jerusalem and the end of the world.....
BTW, I totally 110% agree WITH you in that Hal Lindsey, Jack Van Impe, Jerry Jenkins contribute to these unjust attacks upon Christianity. Lets not forget others like JW's, the 2012 calender thing, an on and on.....
"I see a church today that is disengaged from the world around it. Many hope to simply "rapture" out and be done with it all.".......... I think for you to see that, is really a testament to how out-of-touch you are. There are many Christian churchs that do not teach the millenniumist version of the "rapture".
"I see a church today that is disengaged from the world around it."
Tell me, whats the name of your church?........................
How many members are there?...................................
How many missionaries does your church have?..............
How many churches do you have nation wide, world wide, county wide?.........................
/
Ephesians 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God
which is given me to you-ward:
Paul writes, that the dispensation of the grace of God or commonly known as the church age, was given to him. A mystery that was now revealed through the Apostle Paul:
Ephesians 3:3-7 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
Paul clearly states the dispensation we are in. Maybe I'm wrong, but are you saying there is no dispensations? How do you get past this verse.
As far as Matt. ch. 10, Jesus is clearly talking to his disciples to go to the nation of Israel to win them to Christ. The Kingdom was at hand. If they would of accepted Him, Christ would of brought in the Kingdom. But they rejected Him and killed Him, their King.
Matthew 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
Which led to Peter's Preaching:
Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Peter let the house of Israel know that they just killed their King.
Now, it is true that during Paul's ministry, he thought that the return of Christ is "at hand". He believed it would be in his day. But the "Day of the Lord" would not be for "two days" or two thousand years. Jesus made it clear that no man knows the hour or day, but we know by the season's that the time is near. Many Bible scholars understand the "two days"
Hosea 6:2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
The question is, when does the two days begin. Some believe at the baptism of Jesus, some Pentecost, some the Resurrection. In either case, that would put the Rapture and Second coming in this gereration.
I am a firm believer in we are in the last days. In stead of playing games at the foot of the cross, maybe we should spend more time in getting people saved.
needrain: I very much appreciate your response, but I also wanted to refrain from Scripture tossing. You have presented "proof" texts that I now must study in order to ascertain whether you are applying them correctly through a proper understanding of their contexts! I make it a practice to as much as possible never use as a supportive argument a ny verse which I have not thoroughly investigated, oftentimes studying the chapters before and after the one in consideration so as not to misunderstand and misapply the author's intent.
But I will indulge you this once by considering the verses you presented. Here is the danger of simply finding a word which SEEMS to say something but actually says something else--
The word "dispensation" in Ephesians 3:2 is not used in the sense in which you are taking it. It is the Greek word oikonomia and is translated in Luke 16:2-4, I Corinthians 9:17, and Colossians 1:25 as "stewardship." In 1 Timothy 1:4 it is rendered "edification." The related Greek word, oikonomos is rendered as "steward" in the NT. The only place where oikonomia is translated as "dispensation" is in the book of Ephesians. As far as I can ascertain, the term is found nowhere in the Greek translation of the OT (The Septuagint). We cannot and must not build a doctrine of so-called dispensations out of a few verses that speak of one dispensation.
Would you please provide biblical support for your contention that the coming of God's kingdom which was then at hand was somehow thwarted by the actions and desires of men? needrain, are you not merely restating the dispensational things you have been taught concerning the kingdom? Simply because Christ was rejected by those whom He condemned in Matthew 23, does not mean that the true Jews, those circumcised in their, rejected Him as well. In fact, they did not. His kingdom was and is not of this world and therefore its coming was not contingent upon the belief or lack of belief of those OT, stiff-necked Jews of Jesus' day!
You are correct that no man, including the not yet ascended Christ knew the day or the hour. But Jesus knew the time frame and He clearly stated it in Matthew 24:34--"This generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place."
Let's consider Hosea 6:2 in its context. First of all, this chapter is couched between two chapters concerning the impending judgment of OT Israel. In Hosea 6, Hosea pleads with her to repent and "return to the Lord." Again, we cannot and must not press words to create our doctrines. It is not totally clear what Hosea had in mind when he spoke of "two days" and a "third day." Furthermore, it is not always wise to trust what "most scholars understand." We must study diligently and faithfully for ourselves to see whether what they "understand" is biblical.
I am a firm believer in the fact that we are not in the last days. The writer of Hebrews makes in clear that those of his day were living in the last days (Heb. 1:1). Peter also made that clear when he quoted Joel 2 concerning the last days and declared that his time was the fulfillment of that prophecy! There are many others but that would detract from the topic at hand.
Again, your beliefs about "two days" is merely speculation. Should we not rather base what we believe on sound scriptural support?
Getting back to Matthew 10--I still await your answer. Without reference to any other passage, what is Jesus saying in Matthew 10--verse 23 in particular?
In Christ, Preterist
p.s. What exactly do you mean by your statement "playing games at the foot of the cross?"
I think it's because there are more than enough threads in which preterists and dispensationalists alike have already posted their views on this subject. I've already stated this elsewhere but I will try again here. Those who post in these threads already have their minds made up and are not going to be convinced otherwise unless the Lord reveals to them that their position is wrong (period).
You have stated that you changed your position after you got into the word and studied the matter for yourself, correct? Is it not your claim that the Lord showed you through the scriptures that the preterist point of view is the correct one? If that is indeed the case then why can't you just allow the Lord to work in other's lives in the same way He worked in yours and also show them the error of their ways?
And I'm sorry to have to say this but I think you are more motivated by trying to convince others that you are right and they are wrong moreso than anything else.
I can understand where a modern skeptic might look at that chapter and think that he did not come back as he said, but as you have stated, he did come back after the resurrection and saw those disciples. He did tell them a little while you will not see me and then again you would and then he would go back to the Father. However, modern skeptics do not read other parts of the Bible and just pick and choose what they want to be skeptical about.
Matthew 10:23 (last part) states: You shall not have gone over the cities of Israel until the Son of man be come. I think Jesus refers to the Son of man as Satan. Jesus is the Son of God.
Satan is not the Son of Man! Where does Jesus call him that? This expression is used in the NT many times (around 80 I think) by Jesus as referring to Himself! Are you saying that in Matthew 10:23 Jesus was saying that the disciples would not go through all the cities of Israel before Satan came? Where is the biblical justification for such a rendering?
When Jesus speaks of His coming in Matthew 10, He is not referring to the time He appeared to His disciples and others after His resurrection. They would have had NO opportunity to go through the cities of Israel before such a time. All of the things Jesus forewarns them of in Matthew 10 are directly related to the same things He predicts concerning them in Matthew 24, and those things were to happen in their generation (Matthew 24:34).
Clearly not all of the things that were to happen to Jesus' disciples as predicted by Jesus in Matthew 10 took place while Jesus was still with them. They could not, therefore, have all happened in the three days before Jesus rose from the dead and appeared to the disciples and others! Many of the things predicted took place following Pentecost and throughout the time of the Acts of the Apostles and during the time of the writing of the epistles (e.g. being delivered up to councils, being scourged in the synagogues, being brought before governors and kings, being hated by all). The coming Jesus spoke of in Matthew 10 is the same one He referred to in Matthew 24:30 when He said that "all the tribes of the land" would see "the Son of Man [JESUS] coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."
The coming of Matthew 10 is also the same "coming" spoken of by Jesus in Matthew 26:64 when He told Caiaphas and the rulers that they themselves would see the "Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power and coming on the clouds of heaven." That happened in A. D. 70 when they saw the "sign" of His "coming" in the destruction of the city and the Temple.
I am concerning about those who post and have their minds made up; I am seeking to correct their false teaching so that others who read their words will not be deceived by them!
This is your opinion that it is false teaching. I would beg to differ. Are you the final authority on how these verses should be interpreted?
Preterist said:
IF you have read my posts, you would know that I am motivated by encouraging others and myself to truly study God's Word and not be victims of deceit and false teaching.
I have read your posts.See what I wrote above.
Preterist said:
I see a church today that is disengaged from the world around it.
Are you sitting in every church service in every city and town in this country on any given Sunday morning/evening, Bible study ect? I think not. Have you spoken with every believer about whether or not they are engaged or disengaged from the world around them?
Preterist said:
needrain: I very much appreciate your response, but I also wanted to refrain from Scripture tossing. You have presented "proof" texts that I now must study in order to ascertain whether you are applying them correctly through a proper understanding of their contexts!
Again, you are implying that you will interpret these scriptures correctly and needrain's interpetation might need to be corrected. I see nothing but arrogance on your part.
This will be my final thought on this topic. Again, as I have said in a previous post on another thread....do we need to hang our salvation on whether or not we hold the preterist or dispensationalist point of view? Are we not a true believer if we deny one or the other? When we insist on arguing with one another about issues that I believe do not matter in the great scheme of things, that is when we open the door for the enemy to move right on in and do his work. Don't you know that Satan loves to see believers argue (I know you don't see it as arguing, but many on here do) amongst themselves? I think he's getting a huge kick out of what's taking place on here and I think it's very, very said.
Satan is not the Son of Man! Where does Jesus call him that? This expression is used in the NT many times (around 80 I think) by Jesus as referring to Himself! Are you saying that in Matthew 10:23 Jesus was saying that the disciples would not go through all the cities of Israel before Satan came? Where is the biblical justification for such a rendering?
When Jesus speaks of His coming in Matthew 10, He is not referring to the time He appeared to His disciples and others after His resurrection. They would have had NO opportunity to go through the cities of Israel before such a time. All of the things Jesus forewarns them of in Matthew 10 are directly related to the same things He predicts concerning them in Matthew 24, and those things were to happen in their generation (Matthew 24:34).
Clearly not all of the things that were to happen to Jesus' disciples as predicted by Jesus in Matthew 10 took place while Jesus was still with them. They could not, therefore, have all happened in the three days before Jesus rose from the dead and appeared to the disciples and others! Many of the things predicted took place following Pentecost and throughout the time of the Acts of the Apostles and during the time of the writing of the epistles (e.g. being delivered up to councils, being scourged in the synagogues, being brought before governors and kings, being hated by all). The coming Jesus spoke of in Matthew 10 is the same one He referred to in Matthew 24:30 when He said that "all the tribes of the land" would see "the Son of Man [JESUS] coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."
The coming of Matthew 10 is also the same "coming" spoken of by Jesus in Matthew 26:64 when He told Caiaphas and the rulers that they themselves would see the "Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power and coming on the clouds of heaven." That happened in A. D. 70 when they saw the "sign" of His "coming" in the destruction of the city and the Temple.
Preterist
OK. Well, maybe I got confused with some other scriptures that I have read in the Bible. I apologize if I was inaccurate. I will do some more research on what I thought I had read. I may have gotten confused. God forgive me if I did.
All I tried to do was understand what you were saying and try to look at it objectively from a skeptic's point of view per your request. I don't have the obvious amount of word knowledge that you have.
However, I do know one thing. I believe in Jesus through faith and nothing you are really talking about makes one bit of difference in the end. Jesus said in order to enter the kingdom you must be like a child. I accept him for what he is and what he has done. He is the Son of God and he died on the cross to save our sins. Simple as that.
28 "And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions.
29 Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days. 30 I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and billows of smoke. 31 The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.
How many days of the Lord are there? Joel say DAYS (plural) then uses "at that time". Is Joel also wrong? Correct understanding is that the destruction of Jerusalum is the example of the destruction of the world.
Knowing you will not agree, Peter proclaimed Joel 2 was fulfilled at Pentecost. Was that THE day of the Lord? If so, when has the sun regained its light and the moon no longer blood? When have the stars start shining again? I really would like to know.
Is "WILL" not just as clear as "THIS" "THAT" "NEAR"? The sun WILL stop shining, the moon WILL turn into blood, the stars WILL no longer shine, the righteous WILL shine like the sun.
How about the last half of this prophecy?
Joel 3
The Nations Judged
1 "In those days and at that time,
when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat.
12 "Let the nations be roused; let them advance into the Valley of Jehoshaphat, for there I will sit to judge all the nations on every side.
13 Swing the sickle, for the harvest is ripe. Come, trample the grapes, for the winepress is full and the vats overflow— so great is their wickedness!"
14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision. 15 The sun and moon will be darkened, and the stars no longer shine.
Peter preached that Joel's prophecy was being fulfilled on Pentecost. How could the prophet Joel say the day of the Lord is NEAR if it was fulfilled 780 years later? What did he not understand about "NEAR".
If all the prophecy's were fulfilled in 70AD as you claim, can you tell me were the valley of Jehoshaphat is? According to Wilkpedia "
Now we have "ALL NATIONS"( "multitudes, multitudes") being gathered on the day of the Lord which is "NEAR" (NEAR means NEAR doesn't) in a valley that never existed that Peter says is fulfilled 780 years later.
Joel is another example of when a prophecy can contain two lesson points about two different time events, in this case Pentecost and the end of the world. Jesus does the same thing, one prophecy two lesson points about two different events, destruction of Jerusalem and the end of the world.....
BTW, I totally 110% agree WITH you in that Hal Lindsey, Jack Van Impe, Jerry Jenkins contribute to these unjust attacks upon Christianity. Lets not forget others like JW's, the 2012 calender thing, an on and on.....
"I see a church today that is disengaged from the world around it. Many hope to simply "rapture" out and be done with it all.".......... I think for you to see that, is really a testament to how out-of-touch you are. There are many Christian churchs that do not teach the millenniumist version of the "rapture".
"I see a church today that is disengaged from the world around it."
Tell me, whats the name of your church?........................
How many members are there?...................................
How many missionaries does your church have?..............
How many churches do you have nation wide, world wide, county wide?.........................
twin.spin: Your post is a prime example of why preterists are accused of asking the same questions and arguing a point to the death. You did not answer the original question anywhere in your post. I made some minor statement about the lasts days and Joel 2 and that is what you zeroed in on. You ignore the primary question that was asked and resort to asking a myriad of questions that would take hours to answer!
My statements about the church and the dispensationalists' longing for an escape from this world were also directed at someone who was questioning why we preterists keep "beating a dead horse."
Why? Because no one will answer a simple question.
twin.spin: Here again is the simple question. In the total context of Matthew 10, what did Jesus mean when He said directly to the Twelve "You will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes?"
I am concerning about those who post and have their minds made up; I am seeking to correct their false teaching so that others who read their words will not be deceived by them!
This is your opinion that it is false teaching. I would beg to differ. Are you the final authority on how these verses should be interpreted?
Preterist said:
IF you have read my posts, you would know that I am motivated by encouraging others and myself to truly study God's Word and not be victims of deceit and false teaching.
I have read your posts.See what I wrote above.
Preterist said:
I see a church today that is disengaged from the world around it.
Are you sitting in every church service in every city and town in this country on any given Sunday morning/evening, Bible study ect? I think not. Have you spoken with every believer about whether or not they are engaged or disengaged from the world around them?
Preterist said:
needrain: I very much appreciate your response, but I also wanted to refrain from Scripture tossing. You have presented "proof" texts that I now must study in order to ascertain whether you are applying them correctly through a proper understanding of their contexts!
Again, you are implying that you will interpret these scriptures correctly and needrain's interpetation might need to be corrected. I see nothing but arrogance on your part.
This will be my final thought on this topic. Again, as I have said in a previous post on another thread....do we need to hang our salvation on whether or not we hold the preterist or dispensationalist point of view? Are we not a true believer if we deny one or the other? When we insist on arguing with one another about issues that I believe do not matter in the great scheme of things, that is when we open the door for the enemy to move right on in and do his work. Don't you know that Satan loves to see believers argue (I know you don't see it as arguing, but many on here do) amongst themselves? I think he's getting a huge kick out of what's taking place on here and I think it's very, very said.
Your biblical and sound interpretation of Matthew 10 is certainly welcomed; but if this issue is of no concern to you, then do not discuss it. I NEVER said I was the final authority--you falsely accuse me of that. Did I or did I not simply ask for an interpretation of a simple passage in the Bible? Did I not simply ask that we look at the words of Scripture in their context? This entire issue is not so much about a specific passage but the principles of Bible study which determine how we understand any passage.
Furthermore, Satan is of no concern to me. He was crushed under the feet of those first century believers by the God of Peace (Rom. 16:20)!
He is not laughing at anything right now nor will he ever again!
OK. Well, maybe I got confused with some other scriptures that I have read in the Bible. I apologize if I was inaccurate. I will do some more research on what I thought I had read. I may have gotten confused. God forgive me if I did.
All I tried to do was understand what you were saying and try to look at it objectively from a skeptic's point of view per your request. I don't have the obvious amount of word knowledge that you have.
However, I do know one thing. I believe in Jesus through faith and nothing you are really talking about makes one bit of difference in the end. Jesus said in order to enter the kingdom you must be like a child. I accept him for what he is and what he has done. He is the Son of God and he died on the cross to save our sins. Simple as that.
Thank you PG77 for your honesty. It is nothing to be ashamed of to be a beginning student of God's Word. I have been at this for over forty years and still often feel as though I have just scraped the surface!
One thing I encourage you to do--always be a good Berean. No matter how learned someone is, no matter what position he holds, no matter how recognized he is, every biblical "truth" he teaches must conform to the Scriptures. Test everything and everybody and most of all know not only what you believe but why you believe it. That takes time, diligence, and hard, hard work. Be careful of stating things before you are biblical convinced of their truth. I have made my share of such mistakes over the years!
I find it very interesting that those who investigate the counterfeiting of money, study not the counterfeit but the authentic. IF we thoroughly study the authenticity of the Scriptures, we will not be led astray by every wind of doctrine. I was once one of those led astray by the erroneous teachings of important and prominent men. I have resolved to never let that happen again. I do not claim, as some have falsely accused, to have arrived at all truth. I attempt to remain open-minded and ever ready to change anything I believe IF it can be proven to me through proper biblical hermeneutical principles that I am wrong in ANY area.
I was once a premillennial dispensationalist (for twenty years)--I know all of the arguments. And I know that most dispensationalists (those I know anyway--and I know quite a few) lack the ability to clearly and biblically present the reasons they believe what they believe. That is why I brought up Matthew 10. I do not know your level of biblical knowledge and spirituality, but I do not think that it is beyond your ability to grasp what Jesus was telling His disciples in Matthew 10.
Apart from anything that you have been taught, PG77, what does Jesus seem to be saying in this passage, especially in verse 23 when He tells those disciples right there with Him--"You will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes." Does He not simply seem to be saying that He is going to come in the lifetime of those very disciples? What else could He mean? Does what He is saying here line up with the popular dispensational teaching that Jesus has still not come--after nearly two thousand years?
PG77, if you are truly born again, you have the spiritual insight to understand God's Word. Endeavor to always take the path of least resistance--in other words, let words say what they say! That is always the safest route to truth.
Blessings in Christ, Preterist
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