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What I am saying is either we have to come up with a way of life and a way of 'church' that is closer to the example in scripture or we just throw in the towel based on your quote.
Or option three...
What if the NTC never died? What if it is still alive, with an unbroken lineage of true baptism, true doctrine and practice, and Holy-Spirit-filled direction? Not a "denomination" or a man-created religion.. maybe at different times in history known by different names, but always there... and a continuation of the NTC started 2000 years ago..??
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha8207
Ok, so forget what people on the internet would say, that really wasn't the point.
The point is I would say we're divided, distracted, confused, diluted, and mostly a wet blanket.
We're defeated and deflated and we walk with little victory in our steps.
Again, these are the 'rules' and I realize there are 'exceptions'.
What I am saying, and I don't really think it's apples to oranges, is do I look like a New Testament Christian? Do you?
But most importantly, do 'we'?
The reason I said you're comparing apples to oranges is that the people who responded to your "Christian" poll were judging everyone that now or ever has fallen under the umbrella of Christianity. They're acting as though the wheat is the same as the tares because they don't want to recognize what true Christianity looks like. So, the two lists are obviously going to look different.
Now, if you ask those you consider to be true Christians to describe others that they think are true Christians, I think you'd find a list that more closely matches the NT one. Is the church perfect? I don't think anyone would say that it is, nor are the individuals within it. Can it be fixed in this day and age? Maybe. Statistically 1-2% of a population can change the culture. So, 1-2% of totally sold out Christians should be able to change their churches. Think about that a little. How many churches have 100 attendees in order to produce the one or two that can change the church? Will it be a wheat that changes the church, or a tare? The numbers are staggering and overwhelmingly against reform. I doubt that we can do anything about the church, but with God, all things are possible.
I've been told that the church in China has been praying that the American church would face persecution. They don't want us facing the kind of restraints they face, but they would like to see us undergo a purifying fire. They think we've gotten too comfortable and we've been resting on our laurels, seeing no reason to improve.
If faced with persecution, most (if not all) of the tares would leave the church because it is no longer comfortable or profitable to identify as a Christian. The wheat would band together and become more unified, searching the Scriptures and earnestly praying for God's guidance in times of trouble rather than going through the motions. As individuals and churches draw closer to God, they will reflect his attributes and become more like the NT church (and Christ). They would be an attractive light in a dark world.
Persecuted churches in countries hostile to the gospel seem to grow exponentially.
Quote:
The point is I would say we're divided, distracted, confused, diluted, and mostly a wet blanket.
We're defeated and deflated and we walk with little victory in our steps.
Self-identification. (We all do it.) If we say we are those things, we become those things. Christians need to take every thought captive. Does it line up with the Word of God?
What would happen if individual Christians and churches claimed the victory Christ offers? What if we took the challenge to be overcomers? What if we walked in victory rather than cower in fear or collapse in fatigue? What if we ran the race knowing (not hoping) we'd win the prize? What if we all actually studied the Word rather than let others tell us about it? (The Protestant Reformation started because priests actually started reading the Word for themselves and realized the doctrine they had been taught couldn't be found in the Bible.)
What if the NTC never died? What if it is still alive, with an unbroken lineage of true baptism, true doctrine and practice, and Holy-Spirit-filled direction? Not a "denomination" or a man-created religion.. maybe at different times in history known by different names, but always there... and a continuation of the NTC started 2000 years ago..??
What if?
Didn't Jesus say that this would happen?
It stays alive in everyone that lives it. We are the Temples of God.
What I am saying is either we have to come up with a way of life and a way of 'church' that is closer to the example in scripture or we just throw in the towel based on your quote.
It is at hand, it is within you. Jesus gave the example. He did not go on His mission until He was prepared. Purify yourself and then you will hear clearly how to tend the church.
Quote:
Anyway, maybe this was just more for me than anyone. I have a long way to go. I am not perfect. I am not as focused, committed, and sold out as those who 'dropped their nets and followed Jesus'.
But I want to be. I only want to be identified as one of His followers.
Believing that All things for God's Glory are possible opens our eyes, and minds to the ways of Oneness. A sk S eek K nock
Originally Posted by Blueberry Alpha, you know I love you, but I'm not sure this is a valid exercise. You're largely comparing apples and oranges.
The NT Christians were true Christians, many of whom actually walked with Jesus. Others were visited by the Holy Spirit in a very real, recognizable way, as evidenced by signs. In those days, there wasn't a tradition of Christianity. People weren't "born" into the faith. Secularly speaking, NT Christians had nothing to gain and everything to lose by claiming Christianity, so only true believers would claim the name of Christ. Finally, the NT Christians were the closest to pure doctrine that one could be, before a couple of centuries of tradition and interpretation could corrupt the faith. The corruption that occurred during NT times was corrected by one of the apostles.
Today, many people identify themselves as Christians without knowing the Biblical standard for being one. (They were born Christian; or they were once baptized; or they said a prayer, attend church, donate to the church, or do good works; or . . .) "Evangelical" churches portray Christianity as a simple matter of believing in Christ and saying a prayer, often without the accompanying requirement of repentance. Christianity has largely become a simple matter of fire insurance rather than a life transforming, deeply personal experience where the individual strives to conform to the image of Christ.
Biblical Christianity is not what's being judged today.
~~~~~
. . . what can we do now to try and return back to the grass roots purity that our faith was born in? . . . How do we reconcile these different pictures? - Part 1
The tares are mixed in with the wheat. There's really not much true Christians can do except wait for the harvest. Their public image will always be tarnished by the tares. Privately, each true Christian can determine to transform his mind and present his body a living sacrifice. He can study the Scriptures and hear from God directly rather than letting others do "God's talking" for him. He can quit having his ears tickled with what he wants to hear and, instead, desire the pure milk (and meat) of the Word. He can filter all ideas/thoughts/philosophies through the lens of Scripture. He can pay attention to what his children are learning in school and help them to correctly analyze the influences in their lives. He can live his life in such a way that he is a bright light shining in a dark world, a light that others are drawn to rather than repelled by. However, lovers of darkness will always be repelled by the light, no matter how pleasant it is.
Biblical churches can purify themselves by: 1) exercising proper discipline, 2) not inviting non-believers in (Christians should be converting their friends/family/acquaintances then inviting them into the church.), 3) being transformed by revival and true repentance, 4) not compromising Biblical doctrine, 5) by being watchmen and shouting a warning. Cg81 has some great thoughts on churches and what they should be. However, the image and reputation of even the purest church will be tarnished by false Christianity.
. . . what can we do now to try and return back to the grass roots purity that our faith was born in? . . . How do we reconcile these different pictures? - Part 2
Both pure individuals and cleansed churches will be hated by a politically correct world. That was true 2000 years ago, and it's true today. The Bible records incidents where individuals spread false information about Christ/Christians. Some were even bribed to do so. Today is not much different except people don't have to be bribed to spread false information. We live in a society where it's popular to bash Christians; truth is irrelevant.
Christ said the world would hate Christians because of Him. Fast forward 2000 years to a society immersed in political correctness, rudeness, and self-gratification. Situational ethics, moral relativism, and collectivism are just a few of today's flawed philosophies. Universities and other educational institutions are a hot-bed of liberalism and contempt for traditional values. Hostility toward Christianity is flaunted and encouraged. When their arguments fail, non-Christians will resort to ridicule and shouting. Ugly labels are used as weapons regardless of the truth of such labels. The goal is to silence biblical Christianity because the Word of God is powerful and convicting.
Christians have made the mistake of letting the world define them rather than resting in their identity as children of God. They look at the ugly labels and are chagrined rather instead of evaluating such labels for their honesty. Christians compromise their personal standards and betray God's because they don't like the persecution that comes with standing firm.
I'm not going to worry about what people on the internet say about Christians. I can't do a single thing about the Christians in their lives, and I have no idea if they are being truthful in their statements or if they are simply repeating what they have been told and are aiming their arrows at our soft spots. I can only examine myself and see how my life lines up with the Word of God and who He's calling me to be. I am only accountable for my own actions. I honestly don't care what the world thinks of me. Friendship with the world is enmity with God. I don't care what labels others throw at me since I know the truth about myself and I know The Truth. I want to be known as a friend of Jesus, a child of the King. Therein lies my identity.
Wow & Amen!!!
This is so right on with what my own thoughts and heart have sense for sometime now....
As Christians, how have we let ourselves get so far from our model(s).
I generally try to stay out of these conversations as I'm not nearly as biblically bright as 99.99% of the people who have responded thus far.
My take is as follows:
Look no further than the responses in this thread. People are so concerned over how "right" they are they miss the message. They are more concerned with punctuation than the story.
I generally try to stay out of these conversations as I'm not nearly as biblically bright as 99.99% of the people who have responded thus far.
My take is as follows:
Look no further than the responses in this thread. People are so concerned over how "right" they are they miss the message. They are more concerned with punctuation than the story.
Religion is like real estate: Location, Location, Location!
What if the NTC never died? What if it is still alive, with an unbroken lineage of true baptism, true doctrine and practice, and Holy-Spirit-filled direction? Not a "denomination" or a man-created religion.. maybe at different times in history known by different names, but always there... and a continuation of the NTC started 2000 years ago..??
What if?
Didn't Jesus say that this would happen?
Yes, He did!! The parable of the wheat and tares. The apostasy. Man is the one who keep centralizing the church to one spot (Denominations). The true church is alive in China, Africa, America, Russia......
That to me is why God keeps and protects! Because of the true believer.
I don't believe the NTC died.... I think as those who are truly walking in Christ can see this....
Doing the work we are called to do! To continue living and proclaiming the kingdom of God. Even in the midst of the tares.
What was said in Revelation, He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.....the Spirit is speaking through the true believer in the midst.
It is up to the individual to hear and heed the call!!!
God said, He was seeking those who worship Him in spirit and truth. We do that everywhere we go.... home, work, play, shopping, church! We are the Church in Christ Jesus....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha8207
As Christians, how have we let ourselves get so far from our model(s).
But are we? Remember there are tares......
Quote:
Originally Posted by cg81 God's kingdom is within us.. the NTC was a visible body.. an outward manifestation of the kingdom, showing the attributes of Christ!
Yes, it is! But it is showing!
Not everyone that says Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of God. There are those tares that look like the wheat. And the true believer in Christ can see the difference...... from the wolves in sheep clothing.
Blessings
Last edited by Cyber Munchkin; 07-15-2008 at 03:53 PM..
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