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Let's look at a few verses before this one, Zechariah 7:8-12 "Then this message came to Zechariah from the Lord, this is what the Lord Almighty says, judge fairly and honestly and show mercy and kindness to one another. Do not oppress widows, orphans, foreigners and poor people. And do not make evil plans to harm each other. Your ancestors would not listen to this message. They turned stubbornly away and put their fingers in their ears to keep from hearing. They made their hearts as had as stone, so they could not hear the law or the messages that the Lord Almighty had sent them by His spirit through the earlier prophets. This is why the Lord Almighty was so angry with them".
God will never turn His back anyone who is truly seeking Him. This is about people who have brought God's wrath on themselves by hardening their hearts toward Him.
Right. But June, by pure definition, would be one of those who has "hardened her heart" and therefore, God's wrath would thereby be focused on me. So what if twenty years down the line June or some other atheist or Hindu, or whomever suddenly had a turn of events and changed their mind? (Not that I"m quite so sure it happens that way at all. The "change the mind" part.)
--What then?
(Am just trying to grasp this...It's not making a whole lot of sense to me. Then again, one can understand why!)
Right. But June, by pure definition, would be one of those who has "hardened her heart" and therefore, God's wrath would thereby be focused on me. So what if twenty years down the line June or some other atheist or Hindu, or whomever suddenly had a turn of events and changed their mind? (Not that I"m quite so sure it happens that way at all. The "change the mind" part.)
--What then?
(Am just trying to grasp this...It's not making a whole lot of sense to me. Then again, one can understand why!)
Take gentle care.
I believe this is speaking about people who never change their mind about God and their heart never changes.
Luke 15:7
I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.
who is the "sinner"? One of them is The Prodigal Son... Luke 15:11-32
"But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.'"
Yes June, sadly you are correct. Gods wrath will be focused on you, and it doesn't need to be. June doesn't need to harden her heart.
Yes June, sadly you are correct. Gods wrath will be focused on you, and it doesn't need to be.
June doesn't need to harden her heart.
Well, if June is "correct" then so be it. If God wants to focus his "wrath" on me, then there's nothing June can do...
Which is odd. June doesn't feel as though she has a "hardened heart." Alot of the people June works with are very poor, and very sick. June purposely stays at her job due to the fact that her "hardened heart" tells her that all people are deserving of help, no matter whether they are homeless or whether they live in the more affluent area of my town and are merely "depressed." June doesn't see much difference between the fundamental emotions of the two. The homeless addict is just as worthy of my (and anyone else's) dignity and respect as the person who is living well.
June will never understand your God.
I know that I can sit here and say that I am hardly someone who possesses a hardened heart. My life and how it is lived hardly bespeaks that of an individual with a hardened heart. If anything, I am more than aware of the fact that I am one of the truly lucky people in this world. Peace of mind and loving one's life, (difficulties and all) is a rare commodity these days. Not for a moment do I pretend to take my life for granted, nor could I. It's simply not in my nature...
So if, at the end of the day, God is focusing his wrath on me, and I am destined to hell, then I guess I will just have to accept that. That doesn't mean, however, that I shall not get up in the morning, and continue about my life in a way whereby I intentionally, purposely, attempt (in my own little June way, doing what June does) to make His World just a tiny little bit better. Why? Because that's me. Because I genuinelly care about people. I don't doubt that there are those who do exactly the same job as I, who live the same life as I do, and who are believers, and who would say that they do what they do as a "means to illicit and give thanks and praise to the glory of God."
I do not.
--But it kind of makes you wonder. It makes me wonder. It makes me wonder how any God could look upon me as possessing a hardened heart. Much less a God who possess a hardened enough heart Himself to feel wrath that would constitute sending the likes of June to hell.
And yet this is the God you all want so desperately much for June to believe in?
In reference to the OT quote at the beginning of this thread, June thinks this:
She is the one, once again, in the end, who has decided that there is no point in her even listening.
...Because to do so only results in breaking her spirit. Time after time again.
Well, if June is "correct" then so be it. If God wants to focus his "wrath" on me, then there's nothing June can do...
Which is odd. June doesn't feel as though she has a "hardened heart." Alot of the people June works with are very poor, and very sick. June purposely stays at her job due to the fact that her "hardened heart" tells her that all people are deserving of help, no matter whether they are homeless or whether they live in the more affluent area of my town and are merely "depressed." June doesn't see much difference between the fundamental emotions of the two. The homeless addict is just as worthy of my (and anyone else's) dignity and respect as the person who is living well.
June will never understand your God.
I know that I can sit here and say that I am hardly someone who possesses a hardened heart. My life and how it is lived hardly bespeaks that of an individual with a hardened heart. If anything, I am more than aware of the fact that I am one of the truly lucky people in this world. Peace of mind and loving one's life, (difficulties and all) is a rare commodity these days. Not for a moment do I pretend to take my life for granted, nor could I. It's simply not in my nature...
So if, at the end of the day, God is focusing his wrath on me, and I am destined to hell, then I guess I will just have to accept that. That doesn't mean, however, that I shall not get up in the morning, and continue about my life in a way whereby I intentionally, purposely, attempt (in my own little June way, doing what June does) to make His World just a tiny little bit better. Why? Because that's me. Because I genuinelly care about people. I don't doubt that there are those who do exactly the same job as I, who live the same life as I do, and who are believers, and who would say that they do what they do as a "means to illicit and give thanks and praise to the glory of God."
I do not.
--But it kind of makes you wonder. It makes me wonder. It makes me wonder how any God could look upon me as possessing a hardened heart. Much less a God who possess a hardened enough heart Himself to feel wrath that would constitute sending the likes of June to hell.
And yet this is the God you all want so desperately much for June to believe in?
In reference to the OT quote at the beginning of this thread, June thinks this:
She is the one, once again, in the end, who has decided that there is no point in her even listening.
...Because to do so only results in breaking her spirit. Time after time again.
Silence.
Use the silence to listen for God, June. You keep listening to what humans say, but you're not listening for God. People will break your spirit everytime. God will NEVER let you down.
I have no doubt whatsoever that you are a good person...none. You have a big heart. It's big enough to accept Jesus.
I know you do wonderful things for people. Unfortunately, this is not what saves us. Your heart, mind, body and spirit must belong to Jesus....you already got the "works" part down.
Right. But June, by pure definition, would be one of those who has "hardened her heart" and therefore, God's wrath would thereby be focused on me. So what if twenty years down the line June or some other atheist or Hindu, or whomever suddenly had a turn of events and changed their mind? (Not that I"m quite so sure it happens that way at all. The "change the mind" part.)
--What then?
(Am just trying to grasp this...It's not making a whole lot of sense to me. Then again, one can understand why!)
Take gentle care.
You have not hardened your heart. If you had, then you would not be participating in this thread. You have always appeared to be open to the idea that there is a God. You don't sound as though you have disdain for Christians and their beliefs.
This verse from the Bible was referring to a specific time period, but just like the rest of the Bible, there is something to be learned from each story, parable or verse. It's an example of what happens when people apparantly acknowledge that there is a God, but do not honor or worship Him. Like saying "we don't need you, and we're going to live like the devil and we don't care what you say"......UNTIL....there's trouble. Then they cry out to God, who has long since let them go.
But June, here's the thing. Even the hardest heart can be softened. And God knows what is in our hearts. If someone has had a change in that hardened heart, God is going to listen. He can tell the difference. It's hard to explain, but God can always tell if we have a sincere heart, or a "blow-heart", so to speak.
Couple of things...why do you always refer to yourself in third person (just curious)?
Second, do you have kids? If you do then it can help you understand the concept of this discussion. When a kid revolts or rebels against the parent, even though the parent may love the child (hopefully) that parent may get to the point where they stop asking and stop looking out for that child. However, once the child figures out the correct path and comes knocking on the parents door (asusming the parent is all-loving like they should be and not hardened themselves, which God will not become since God is all-loving as well) the parent will openly and happily accept that child back into their arms.
Third, I am sure you have been told this before, but being stuck in the mind set of "I am a good person and that is enough" is the exact deceit that the devil wants to hear. Anything that can take someone away from the life giving salvation of Jesus is the devil's work, and the true deceit of the world. But as an atheist, you don't worry about eternal life so it works for you, I understand that.
Stuckinbalad you other post was excellent. My dad and I are believers but my older brother is not. He's about 65 and years ago when we talked about anything Christian he would walk right out of the house. He is bright and educated but has a hard heart. He is a good person. I feel so bad that he cannot see the truth. But I have told him what I believe and why and now all we can do is pray that God draws him to Himself.
I think God has to draw him and he needs to respond.
I always think about the verse that says the things of God are foolishness to men. When we accept Christ it is like a vail is taken away and the Bible becomes alive and so meaningful to every area of our lives. I can't imagine living life not feeling the presense of God with me thoughout my day.
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