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Old 08-02-2008, 12:42 AM
 
Location: Princeton, New Jersey
937 posts, read 643,299 times
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As a practicing Christian, I know that adults who have not accepted Jesus in there life will go to Hell. I am curious as an 18 year-old, if that applies to infants and toddlers. For example, if a 3 year-old girl died before being baptised, would she go to Heaven?
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Old 08-02-2008, 04:09 AM
 
Location: South Africa
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If you believe in hell and the original sin aka inherited from Adam then all folk must go to hell - in fact we all are destined to go to hell - it is called the grave, sheol, hades, realm of the dead.

If you have a double standard for infants that is not fair. Read up on John Calvin's theology - you will see that is what he believed.

Sucks hey?
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Old 08-02-2008, 04:40 AM
 
16,438 posts, read 18,510,024 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAP443 View Post
As a practicing Christian, I know that adults who have not accepted Jesus in there life will go to Hell. I am curious as an 18 year-old, if that applies to infants and toddlers. For example, if a 3 year-old girl died before being baptised, would she go to Heaven?
We are told by the Apostle Paul that if a person hasn't heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ that that person will be judged by their own conscience. How serious can the charges be against a toddler? Jesus said we must become as little children to enter God's Kingdom. There is much to consider in that statement! My understanding is that baptism is not a requirement for salvation, but rather a public expression of our belief in Jesus Christ and acceptance of His offer of salvation by grace through His sacrifice for our sins. Baptism is not a magic wand that grants us salvation. Should we be baptised? Absolutely because even Jesus was baptised and said we should do so. Was He not "saved" before He was baptised? Don't be silly. He is God. If someone you know has been saved but died before they were able to be baptised (even at 101 years of age), don't worry; they will be waiting for you on the other side of this vail.

BTW, we are cautioned in the Bible against gaining too much knowledge because we will be held more accountable for our actions. To whom much is given, much is required. Do you feel better now about a three year old's position at the time of judgement?

Last edited by Bideshi; 08-02-2008 at 04:55 AM..
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Old 08-02-2008, 04:44 AM
 
16,438 posts, read 18,510,024 times
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Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post
If you have a double standard for infants that is not fair. Read up on John Calvin's theology - you will see that is what he believed.

Sucks hey?
Calvin was a theologian, not an Apostle. His opinions were just that, not scripture. Believe what the Bible teaches, not what fallible men say that the Bible teaches.
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Old 08-02-2008, 06:03 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,514,836 times
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Originally Posted by Bideshi
Quote:
Believe what the Bible teaches, not what fallible men say that the Bible teaches.
What about the fallible men who translated the Bible?
Or the very 1st fallible men who put it to pen & paper?
Quote:
BTW, we are cautioned in the Bible against gaining too much knowledge because we will be held more accountable for our actions.
Knowledge always brings responsibility.
Quote:
Uneasy lies the head that wears a crown.
William Shakespeare (1564 - 1616), King Henry IV Part II, Act 2 scene 1
Or are you suggesting that man should remain ignorant?
A leader always has to anticipate, therefore cannot afford to be ignorant.

Besidez, I prefer to be the captain of my own destiny anyway.
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Old 08-02-2008, 07:02 AM
 
Location: South Africa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bideshi View Post
BTW, we are cautioned in the Bible against gaining too much knowledge because we will be held more accountable for our actions. To whom much is given, much is required.
My people perish for a lack of knowledge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bideshi View Post
Calvin was a theologian, not an Apostle. His opinions were just that, not scripture. Believe what the Bible teaches, not what fallible men say that the Bible teaches.
I don't believe Calvin IMO he was very deluded but there are Calvinists. One of his students (name escapes me now J-something) wrote horrific stories of God BBQing babies in hell.

The writers were also fallible. Apostleship gurantees nothing.

Hell is anyway a Greco/Roman pagan myth adopted by Christendom.
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Old 08-02-2008, 07:21 AM
 
16,438 posts, read 18,510,024 times
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Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post
My people perish for a lack of knowledge.

Knowledge of God's Word.


Hell is anyway a Greco/Roman pagan myth adopted by Christendom.

I haven't mentioned hell but since you brought it up, most references to hell in the New Testament are referring simply to the grave if you translate correctly from the Greek. In the instance of hell as a place of eternal torment, it refers to it as a place specifically for Satan and his fallen demons. As to whether condemned humans will also end up in a state of eternal torment or not has been a subject of theological dispute for a long time.
Can you afford to be wrong about hell being a myth?
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Old 08-02-2008, 07:40 AM
 
Location: Pikeville, Ky.
13,459 posts, read 21,197,034 times
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I don't believe that baptism is a command to gain salvation..It is the outward confession of a persons faith..

I also do not believe that infants are born in sin..They are born into a sinful world..I don't think children are held accountable, until they reach an age that they are able to understand the commandments and to be able to make choices knowing the consequences of their choices..There are no scripture saying what the age of accountability is..I think it depends on the mental capacity of the individual..
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Old 08-02-2008, 07:44 AM
 
16,438 posts, read 18,510,024 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blue62 View Post
I don't believe that baptism is a command to gain salvation..It is the outward confession of a persons faith..

Agreed

I also do not believe that infants are born in sin..

Disagree

They are born into a sinful world..

Agreed

I don't think children are held accountable, until they reach an age that they are able to understand the commandments and to be able to make choices knowing the consequences of their choices..

Agreed

There are no scripture saying what the age of accountability is..I think it depends on the mental capacity of the individual..

Perhaps. I wish we knew for sure.
Good comments!
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Old 08-02-2008, 07:47 AM
 
Location: South Africa
5,563 posts, read 6,146,313 times
Reputation: 1785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bideshi View Post
Can you afford to be wrong about hell being a myth?
It is the questions many folk ask me and it is all because of indoctrination and supported by erroneous translations. I discovered the fact about this long after my unbelief in ET was established (8 years old to be exact)

I have posted two threads here on writings by R Brinsmead, one is very long the other short with videos.

Suggest you look at those as his stuff pretty much sums up most of my beliefs. He talks about a payback justice which in essence what Christendom believes in aka eye for an eye mindset and we know what Jesus had to say about that.

It really amazes me the folk that believe Jesus IS God that they then miss His entire message. He turned the whole Torah (book) based religion on its head and today what Jesus taught would no longer be against the Jewish religion but the one that supposes to represent him. Christendom has degraded into a Torah based religion only this one contains the NT too.

It was for freedom the Christ has set us free, no longer to be yoked to bond of slavery. Lyrics from a chorus but do we mean it? I don't think so! Most folk follow the law and NOT Christ. Christ is more than Jesus and the two are not synonymous aka interchangeable. Jesus THE Christ is how He is referred to and it is strange reading here that our "eastern belief" brothers have a better concept of what the Spirit of Christ is than most Christians.

Most folk here classify me as a heretic and that is OK but heresy to what? Their cult, their pet doctrines and beliefs? Seeing I follow no man I cannot see how I am classified as a cultist or heretic. I simply share my POV. Now because many here believe I am deluded they ignore what I say but I am NOT here for the benefit of them, many others read my postings.

A few of here have seen the true light of the gospel and that is what we purport. Ironically in a nutshell it is Unmerited, Unconditional Love of the Father and my oh my how the folk hate to hear that message

One would swear I am promoting satan as a path to salvation what with all the accursed scrips and DM's I get. Well seem like Jesus and I have something in common, His Spirit, He too pissed off the religious in His day.

Seeing Jesus was also a heretic, I am in good company. I will rather be labelled as such than a pious christian specifically the ones that have an elitist - exclusive doctrine.
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