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Old 09-07-2008, 05:34 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 12,415,535 times
Reputation: 1319

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Quote:
Originally Posted by blue62 View Post
I think June is telling us that it is not her job to hand out any advice whether it is seen as "empty winded" by outsiders to the profession or not.
I think a therapists job is to help the patient to eventually be able to make their own decisions..
June has not made known her stance on abortion, she is simply agonizing about a patient of hers who is faced with such mind boggling problems that I would not wish on my worst enemy..
As for myself, I will pray that God will give this woman complete healing from her addiction and that He will help her heal the wounds caused by herself, and the society that is so quick to pass judgements on her without knowing her..And I pray that no matter what her decision is that God will give her peace...
and that Gentle June, the therapist, will never lose her compassion for the castoffs of society..
I'm not sure what you're trying to say. If the woman is able to make a "mind boggling" decision then why go to the therapist? That makes no sense to me. It would seem that people who go to therapists go for just the opposite reason.

I guess I'm just a non-compassionate person that believes that a person is a person no matter how small. To defend the defendless, the pursuit of life, liberty for all includes the that right for the unborn.
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Old 09-07-2008, 06:02 PM
 
13,640 posts, read 24,411,941 times
Reputation: 18580
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
I'm not sure what you're trying to say. If the woman is able to make a "mind boggling" decision then why go to the therapist?
If you would read my post again..I said

Quote:
Originally Posted by blue62 View Post
I think a therapists job is to help the patient to eventually be able to make their own decisions..
I didn't say the woman was capable to make a "mindboggling" decision..That is why she sees a therapist..To help her LEARN to make her OWN decision..

I do respect your stance on the abortion issue..I prefer not to state my opinion in this thread , because it is complex, and would lead to unnecessary and unfruitful discussion...
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Old 09-07-2008, 07:09 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 12,415,535 times
Reputation: 1319
Quote:
Originally Posted by blue62 View Post
If you would read my post again..I said



I didn't say the woman was capable to make a "mindboggling" decision..That is why she sees a therapist..To help her LEARN to make her OWN decision.....
How does she learn to make a moral and ethical decision if she isn't told that abortion is a sin? Or living with the emotional trama for many years if not a lifetime? Or the babies that survive an abortion attempt? How would you like to meet the child you tried to abort? From the religious view that is the whole point. Why else would anybody "struggle" with it if common sense morality wasn't the factor.

The fact is abortion is not victim-less, but forgivable.
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Old 09-07-2008, 10:12 PM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,568 posts, read 16,178,518 times
Reputation: 1573
Originally Posted by twin.spin
Quote:
How does she learn to make a moral and ethical decision if she isn't told that abortion is a sin?
Because abortion is as much a sin as eating meat is a sin.
Thou shalt not kill has nothing to do with abortion when it is legal.
If I'm not mistaken the death penalty is still legal in America.
So Christians can't be against abortion but for the death penalty on the argument that God told them: Thou shalt not kill.

Nor should they have gone to war, because instead of going to war they should have turned the other cheek like Jesus had always done.
As a matter of fact, Christians could not be living in America since America was taken by force from the Native Indians.
I could claim that American Christians who still live in America aren’t true Christians because Jesus would never have approved to colonise another country
Especially if it was done by force.
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Old 09-07-2008, 11:05 PM
 
Location: Forests of Maine
37,210 posts, read 60,920,437 times
Reputation: 30075
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
Originally Posted by twin.spin Because abortion is as much a sin as eating meat is a sin.
Thou shalt not kill has nothing to do with abortion when it is legal.
If I'm not mistaken the death penalty is still legal in America.
So Christians can't be against abortion but for the death penalty on the argument that God told them: Thou shalt not kill.

Nor should they have gone to war, because instead of going to war they should have turned the other cheek like Jesus had always done.
As a matter of fact, Christians could not be living in America since America was taken by force from the Native Indians.
I could claim that American Christians who still live in America aren’t true Christians because Jesus would never have approved to colonise another country
Especially if it was done by force.
Does legal define sin?

Why can't God define sin?

Granted I do not see abortion as sin either, but that is because I study the Bible.

As you point out, Americans live in sin.
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Old 09-08-2008, 01:55 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,568 posts, read 16,178,518 times
Reputation: 1573
Originally Posted by forest beekeeper
Quote:
Why can't God define sin?
Devining what is legal and what is a sin are 2 different things.
A sin only has meaning if you believe in an afterlife.
Besidez, stealing from the rich to give to the poor and needy is only a crime and not a sin.

Atheists, unlike theists, only care about what is legal, because sin has no meaning if you don't believe in an afterlife.
So when the pope spoke against using condoms (or having safe sex) he admits that he doesn't care about life, only about the afterlife.
Just like suicide terrorists don't really care about life.

Quote:
As you point out, Americans live in sin.
My point is that Christians believe that EVERYONE is a sinner, no matter what they have done or why.

I simply disagree with the statement that people are born sinners.
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Old 09-08-2008, 05:43 AM
 
7,991 posts, read 12,207,167 times
Reputation: 4348
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
June,
That is a sad commentary about therapists. Having a "dilemma" telling a hurting woman the truth..... that abortion increases the mental anguish of a woman and kills her own offspring. Then to offer (what it sounds from your post) empty winded advice for the confused, to only have the objective they have peace?

its just sad, sad, sad.
I think Blue highlighted very well what the role of a "therapist" is.

It would be utterly unethical of me, as a professional, to superimpose my beliefs, morals, ethics, and feelings as regards what I feel any patient should do. You may not like or agree with that, but that's how it works vis-a-vis the rules and mandates of the APA and licensing board, and code of ethics for those of us who practice psychotherapy.

Patient has access to counsellors who specialize in abortion counselling. She also has access to religious individuals, (priests, ministers, adoption advocates, and so forth) who are more than happy to counsel her. I have certainly made darn sure that she has access to those, mentioned, highlighted above. All I can do is what I am trained, paid to do. Again, it would be completely unethical for me to tell her "Have an abortion" just as it would be unethical for me to tell her "Have the child."
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Old 09-08-2008, 07:29 AM
 
Location: (WNY)
5,384 posts, read 10,829,217 times
Reputation: 7663
Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th View Post
I think Blue highlighted very well what the role of a "therapist" is.

It would be utterly unethical of me, as a professional, to superimpose my beliefs, morals, ethics, and feelings as regards what I feel any patient should do. You may not like or agree with that, but that's how it works vis-a-vis the rules and mandates of the APA and licensing board, and code of ethics for those of us who practice psychotherapy.

Patient has access to counsellors who specialize in abortion counselling. She also has access to religious individuals, (priests, ministers, adoption advocates, and so forth) who are more than happy to counsel her. I have certainly made darn sure that she has access to those, mentioned, highlighted above. All I can do is what I am trained, paid to do. Again, it would be completely unethical for me to tell her "Have an abortion" just as it would be unethical for me to tell her "Have the child."
June, I am sure you are a fabulous therapist... and it would be wrong to bring you own personal morals and beliefs into that type of situation... I applaud you for your ability to seperate the two... it must be difficult.. but necessary in your line of work... A religious leader is the better person to guide her to in that situation if morals/beliefs are concerned...
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Old 09-08-2008, 07:40 AM
 
Location: Houston,Tx
126 posts, read 298,389 times
Reputation: 81
Quote:
June 7th Said: It is so damn easy to post posts on a message board.

It is so damn easy to declare what is "right" or "wrong."

It is so damn easy to uphold high moral principles; to say that we support life; to support and endorse what the Bible says; to adhere to one's religious principles and tenets...

I suspect I know what my patient will most likely do.

I just hope that she will be at peace in so doing...

I just wonder how easy it is for us who post here. I just wonder who holds her hand, or who thinks about what she sacrifices? I just wonder about those who can profess, without ever having been there? I just wonder about those who can proclaim, with the luxury of distance that allows them to do so? I just wonder about a world that creates personal turmoil in the name of needing salvation? I just wonder what it means to know that some over wrought girl needs a "savior?" I just wonder what exists at the moment that life begins, and at the moment that life is extinguished? I just wonder what the difference is between our lives, as comfortably lived, and hers? I just wonder what "salvation" is, and in what form it arrives? I just wonder what we really mean when we advocate for the unborn, and what we, each and every one of us who do so, are doing about it? I just wonder how our words, our posts, our "religious princples" translate into our lives, as really lived....

Because I suspect I know how my patient's life will translate.

--Which is something, I suspect, we will all live with, in the end..

It would be utterly unethical of me, as a professional, to superimpose my beliefs, morals, ethics, and feelings as regards what I feel any patient should do. You may not like or agree with that, but that's how it works vis-a-vis the rules and mandates of the APA and licensing board, and code of ethics for those of us who practice psychotherapy.

Patient has access to counsellors who specialize in abortion counselling. She also has access to religious individuals, (priests, ministers, adoption advocates, and so forth) who are more than happy to counsel her. I have certainly made darn sure that she has access to those, mentioned, highlighted above. All I can do is what I am trained, paid to do. Again, it would be completely unethical for me to tell her "Have an abortion" just as it would be unethical for me to tell her "Have the child."
My next question for U was going to be,have U suggested she see a preacher,etc.,but I see U have.Anyway that must be a difficult profession,I would hate 2 have a job like that! Let me ask U this doesn't the word psycho mean soul?So are U not a therapist for the soul?Doesn't Jung's teachings teach that your religious beliefs and archtypal memories play a very important role in therapy.The girl already knows the decision that she SHOULD make,but that doesn't mean she will make the right 1 especially if her ''soul'' counseler feels she can't guide the girl 2 the right decision based on what is best 4 her souls development and continuence.Being poor and having no one 2 help is hard enough but knowing inside that U passed your child through the fires of Molech[saline solution,etc.],on the altar of conveniece is horrible 2 someone like this girl who knows inside abortion is murder,a sin.My family is poor,we live in the getto,we have yrs exper.N street ministry,&youth ministry N the church.We believe N following what we preach.Many times we have opened our home 2 those N need[life is more important than having extra's].We still believe what we preach.Any believer who has a couch not slept on,SHAME ON U,u are hypocrites.In the end no one can blame another for their sins, be it abortion,murder,hypocrisy,selfishness,greed,ethics ,or the unwillingness 2 open their doors 2 those N true need. Praise be 2 Adonia,Everlasting Father,Almighty God,Prince of Peace,&WONDERFUL COUNSELER,I know who my soul guide [Yeshua]is,& He never guides me wrong.I am praying for the both of U.

Last edited by Alpha8207; 09-08-2008 at 09:27 AM.. Reason: fixed quoting
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Old 09-08-2008, 07:58 AM
 
810 posts, read 1,431,863 times
Reputation: 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
Originally Posted by twin.spin Because abortion is as much a sin as eating meat is a sin.
Thou shalt not kill has nothing to do with abortion when it is legal.
If I'm not mistaken the death penalty is still legal in America.
So Christians can't be against abortion but for the death penalty on the argument that God told them: Thou shalt not kill.

Nor should they have gone to war, because instead of going to war they should have turned the other cheek like Jesus had always done.
As a matter of fact, Christians could not be living in America since America was taken by force from the Native Indians.
I could claim that American Christians who still live in America aren’t true Christians because Jesus would never have approved to colonise another country
Especially if it was done by force.
Which leads one to ask...are we one nation UNDER GOD?? If we are not, as a nation, following the principles in the bible then how can we profess to be under God?

The bible seems clear as to the viability and life of an unborn child...no argument about when a life begins in the bible. The bible is clear on it's stance on murder/taking another life. So however we may justify our actions to relieve guilt, if we claim to follow what is written in the bible, we can't fool ourselves.
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