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While a church building may have certain expenses, such as the electric and water bill, (though there is nothing that necessarily says there must be a "special" building, for that matter), there is no reason why a pastor, nor a "staff", need to be paid. Most people work in the church, voluntarily, and do not receive a check, and work full-time as well. I've seen people put in as much time, at the church, and doing as many church-related activities, as any pastor, and they didn't get a dime for it. Paul, who was a tent maker by trade, apparently didn't live off of the churches, (and, I would say that he was a pretty busy man, running around the countryside, establishing churches). I have seen a few churches, where the pastor works a full-time job, and still ministers to the congregation. I think it's better that way, as it keeps the pastor from having the attitude that the congregation "owes" him.
The church could exist just fine without paid pastors, staff, and fancy trappings. The church became a business centuries ago, and things haven't gotten any better, in our modern times. Paid pastors and staff, stain-glass windows, huge steeples, plush carpeting, monstrous sound systems, and padded pews are entirely useless, and have nothing to do with the way Jesus seemingly intended a ministry to be utilized. People have just gotten so used to this "tradition" of the church, that it's hardly questioned, anymore. Most folks don't like to think outside the box; it's much too uncomfortable.
I haven't read this book, "Pagan Christianity" but it is definitely on my list. I have a feeling that it's going to back up a lot of my own opinions about how the church is run, (and has been, for these hundreds of years). I haven't attended church for quite a long time, and part of the reason are issues of this sort.
I tend to disagree that most Pastors are volunteers. I do believe that the majority of the help within the church should be voluntary, but you really do need someone upon whom you can depend to make his/her obligations a priority. My brother is a Pastor. He does not only do worship services and preach. He has to attend most meetings. He has to visit the sick and shut in and the new members. He has outreach in which he has to be involved. There are weddings and funerals and emergencies come up. He has countless responsibilites too numerous to mention. It is a small church, but he devotes at least 50 to 60 hours per week to his vocation. In my 49 years I have only belonged to three churches, but not one of them has ever had a volunteer Pastor. I mean, how in the world could a person do all he or she needs to do as a volunteer and how could we as members of a congregation expect that person to be there for us whenever we need him/her if he/she has another full time job?
I agree there can be too much frill. I mean who needs expensive sound systems and gymnasiums? However if there is a building and most of the time there is, you cannot avoid the expenses that go along with that, the rent or mortgage (and yes, if you use another building you do have to pay them rent or a fee to use it), the electric, the water, the phone. There are other salaries. Some churches can use volunteers for all positions except the Pastor if they are small, but most congregations need at least a secretary and a choir/music director and/or organist. While there may be folks out there who would volunteer for short periods of time or whenever they have time, most churches need someone who is able to serve reglulary to keep things running effectively.
My brother is a Pastor. He does not only do worship services and preach. He has to attend most meetings. He has to visit the sick and shut in and the new members. He has outreach in which he has to be involved. There are weddings and funerals and emergencies come up. He has countless responsibilites too numerous to mention. It is a small church, but he devotes at least 50 to 60 hours per week to his vocation.
This is a perfect illustration of one of the problems (according to the authors of the book) of the church today. I mean no disrespect to you Nancy, or your brother...but why is it that he has so many responsibilities as pastor of the church?....again, it's the authors' contention that many Christians today go to church every Sunday, put their money in the offering plate with the idea that they have paid the pastor's salary and because of that, expect him/her to do all of the work. This isn't the way it was done in the NT church. Everyone was equal, no one person was meant to be "in charge" and expected to do all of the outreach, visiting, teaching, ect. If more people in the church your brother pastors would step up to the plate and take on some of those responsibilities, perhaps he wouldn't have to put in those 50-60 hours a week.
This is a perfect illustration of one of the problems (according to the authors of the book) of the church today. I mean no disrespect to you Nancy, or your brother...but why is it that he has so many responsibilities as pastor of the church?....again, it's the authors' contention that many Christians today go to church every Sunday, put their money in the offering plate with the idea that they have paid the pastor's salary and because of that, expect him/her to do all of the work. This isn't the way it was done in the NT church. Everyone was equal, no one person was meant to be "in charge" and expected to do all of the outreach, visiting, teaching, ect. If more people in the church your brother pastors would step up to the plate and take on some of those responsibilities, perhaps he wouldn't have to put in those 50-60 hours a week.
While I totally agree with you that more people need to step up to the plate and do their parts, a Pastor still has a major responsibility to his congregation. If my mom dies tomorrow, and maybe its wrong, but I want my Pastor to be there for me. Who is going to plan the funeral service? Certainly another member of the church is not going to do that, nor would I necessarily want that. I want the Pastor who knows me and my family to do it and I certainly do not want to have to have to either wait or feel guilty about calling my Pastor with the news because he is on his construction job or in court hearing a case right now. If my best friend is a member of the church and is getting married, who is going to perform the ceremony? If an 85 year old long term member of the church is in a hospice center he or she is going to probably want a visit or two and maybe Communion served by his/her Pastor. The word Pastor actually means Shepherd. It does not mean preacher, worship leader, etc., but he or she is meant to be the shepherd of the congregation and is to be there to help meet the needs of the congregation he/she serves. I just don't see how the Pastor of the church can be someone who is volunteering his/her time and working full time elsewhere, unless maybe its a congregation of ten people meeting in someone's home or something like that.
Yes, members can serve on and chair committees. They can sing in the choir. They can play in an orchestra or praise band. They can volunteer in the nursery. They can help in the office. They can teach Sunday School. They can lead the Youth group. They can mow the lawn, paint the building or clean the Sunday School rooms. But who is going to serve Holy Communion? Who is going to officate at weddings and funerals? Who is going to visit the sick and shut in (others can do this too, but as I said, most people WANT to see their Pastor at some point and if its long term, more than once)? Who is going to PLAN the worship service (not just write the sermon and preach it)? There is obviously so much more to it than this book leads us to believe.
And what does this say about the respect we should be paying to those who have been trained and ordained? They have, or someone has, paid for their education, usually involving four years of college plus seminary. I am a teacher and I certainly would be offended if the department of education decided that I shouldn't be paid for my vocation because "any volunteer" can do it.
I tend to disagree that most Pastors are volunteers. I do believe that the majority of the help within the church should be voluntary, but you really do need someone upon whom you can depend to make his/her obligations a priority. My brother is a Pastor. He does not only do worship services and preach. He has to attend most meetings. He has to visit the sick and shut in and the new members. He has outreach in which he has to be involved. There are weddings and funerals and emergencies come up. He has countless responsibilites too numerous to mention. It is a small church, but he devotes at least 50 to 60 hours per week to his vocation. In my 49 years I have only belonged to three churches, but not one of them has ever had a volunteer Pastor. I mean, how in the world could a person do all he or she needs to do as a volunteer and how could we as members of a congregation expect that person to be there for us whenever we need him/her if he/she has another full time job?
I agree there can be too much frill. I mean who needs expensive sound systems and gymnasiums? However if there is a building and most of the time there is, you cannot avoid the expenses that go along with that, the rent or mortgage (and yes, if you use another building you do have to pay them rent or a fee to use it), the electric, the water, the phone. There are other salaries. Some churches can use volunteers for all positions except the Pastor if they are small, but most congregations need at least a secretary and a choir/music director and/or organist. While there may be folks out there who would volunteer for short periods of time or whenever they have time, most churches need someone who is able to serve reglulary to keep things running effectively.
I believe you misunderstood me. I didn't say that pastors were mostly volunteers. What I said was, that most people, (in the general sense, as in the rest of the congregation), volunteer their time, and that I've seen a few churches where the pastor worked a full-time job, and pastored, as well.
It is admirable that your brother devotes his time to the church, and to his congregation, but my question would be, why should he be the only one to do the pastoring? Why can we not think outside the box, and realize that one man doesn't need to, nor should he have to, do the entire "job", himself? You see, another problem with a one pastor system is that we put an awful lot on these folks, and then wonder why so many of them burn out?
Of course, most people want to utilize a building, to conduct their services in, (though I don't believe it necessarily has to be that way), so naturally there will be rent, or a mortgage, and utilities. The problem is that we think we have to have paid staff, when in reality, we really don't. It's all a matter of tradition, and while tradition has it's place, up to as point, it can also cause stagnation.
While I totally agree with you that more people need to step up to the plate and do their parts, a Pastor still has a major responsibility to his congregation. If my mom dies tomorrow, and maybe its wrong, but I want my Pastor to be there for me. Who is going to plan the funeral service? Certainly another member of the church is not going to do that, nor would I necessarily want that. I want the Pastor who knows me and my family to do it and I certainly do not want to have to have to either wait or feel guilty about calling my Pastor with the news because he is on his construction job or in court hearing a case right now. If my best friend is a member of the church and is getting married, who is going to perform the ceremony? If an 85 year old long term member of the church is in a hospice center he or she is going to probably want a visit or two and maybe Communion served by his/her Pastor. The word Pastor actually means Shepherd. It does not mean preacher, worship leader, etc., but he or she is meant to be the shepherd of the congregation and is to be there to help meet the needs of the congregation he/she serves. I just don't see how the Pastor of the church can be someone who is volunteering his/her time and working full time elsewhere, unless maybe its a congregation of ten people meeting in someone's home or something like that.
Yes, members can serve on and chair committees. They can sing in the choir. They can play in an orchestra or praise band. They can volunteer in the nursery. They can help in the office. They can teach Sunday School. They can lead the Youth group. They can mow the lawn, paint the building or clean the Sunday School rooms. But who is going to serve Holy Communion? Who is going to officate at weddings and funerals? Who is going to visit the sick and shut in (others can do this too, but as I said, most people WANT to see their Pastor at some point and if its long term, more than once)? Who is going to PLAN the worship service (not just write the sermon and preach it)? There is obviously so much more to it than this book leads us to believe.
And what does this say about the respect we should be paying to those who have been trained and ordained? They have, or someone has, paid for their education, usually involving four years of college plus seminary. I am a teacher and I certainly would be offended if the department of education decided that I shouldn't be paid for my vocation because "any volunteer" can do it.
There is no reason why anyone, who has the heart to do so, cannot fill a pastor's role, within the church. Who says that others in the church cannot help someone plan a funeral? And, anyone in the church, who is a notary public, a justice of the peace, a judge, etc., can marry someone. It doesn't take a piece of paper stating that one came out of a seminary, to marry anyone. And, it can all be done, in the church, perfectly legal, and perfectly spiritual/religious, at the same time. If we weren't so scared to think in a different way, such as not putting everything on one person, then perhaps other people would be more likely to help in these matters, as well as hospital visits, etc. And, I've seen deacons, and Sunday School teachers that I would rather have visit me, or help me in these matters, than some pastors I've known. Just because one is a pastor doesn't automatically qualify them, I can tell you that, because they don't really have a pastor's heart, to begin with; they are merely going through the motions. There are many people behind the pulpit, who have no business being there.
And, yes, pastors can work full-time, and still volunteer time at the church, and it can be bigger than ten people, and not meet at a house. But, again, I believe it takes other people to realize that they can, and need to, step forward, also, when it comes to pastoring. And, without volunteers doing all of those other not-so-important jobs in the church, there would be no church, and no need for a pastor of any kind, in which case this would all be a moot point. Even Paul said that every part of the body is important.
While education is a fine thing, I can tell you that it doesn't command my respect, in and of itself. Education is only worth so much. The pastor I ever had the most respect for, had only a couple of years of Bible college, but he had the biggest heart for pastoring I've ever seen. Another pastor I had eventually earned himself a doctorate, and while I can appreciate the hard work that goes into such a thing, it completely turned his head, and put him on a power trip. As a teacher, it would be natural that you would be offended, should someone tell you that any volunteer can fill your position, but we are speaking of your career, not what is supposed to be a spiritual calling. Should a pastor be offended if someone else in the church can just as easily "fill his shoes", (if they have a true heart for pastoring), considering that the church is supposed to be one body, ministering for the good of one another? This is where man's ego, and pride, come into play, and it's not a pretty thing.
People are comfortable with hundreds of years of tradition, and clinging to their boxes, but, while I know that may be comforting, I believe room needs to be made for fresh thought, even if it does challenge the status quo. And, from what I gather about "Pagan Christianty", (not having had a chance to read it yet), the point the authors seem to be trying to make is, that's it's not only okay, but it's actually a good thing, to think outside the box, and to take a good, long, hard look at those traditions, and determine if they really serve a purpose, or are we simply going along for the ride. I don't believe the church was meant to stagnate. If it's going to be worth anything, it has to be a growing, living entity.
It is MY responsibility to tithe...
once it is given to the church...it is THEIR responsibility to use it wisely..
They (church leaders, pastor and accountant ministry leaders) will be held accountable to how they spend it...
From other comments I've heard about the book, I assume I'm in the minority. I didn't like the book because I felt the author approached the subject with no degree of objectivity but with a spirit of criticism. There were tidbits in the book that were good to consider, but I don't think the author's conclusions were based on solid biblical principles. It seems to me that people who had a critical spirit about the institutionalized church loved the book because it gave them fodder for their dislike. In my opinion, the author was very much like the Pharisees who added to the words of Scripture or had their own unique interpretation based upon narrow passages without considering the whole canon.
When Jesus sent his disciples out two by two, he told them that the workmen (the disciples) were worthy of their hire. In other words, they deserved to be compensated for the services they performed. The people to whom they ministered were to supply their needs. Likewise, Paul wasn't a burden to the Corinthian church only because he was "robbing other churches" and the "brethren from Macedonia" supplied everything he needed (2 Corinthians 11). Yes, Paul was a tent-maker. However, he also received support from others. The churches that had more to give helped support Paul so the churches with little would not feel burdened. I can identify with that because my small church had two different groups visit this summer. Both were from larger churches that did not want to burden us with the cost of supporting their people while they were here so these groups fully supported themselves.
I really disagree with the author's contention that the New Testament churches were completely different from the Temple and synagogues of the day. That being the case, the Bible has plenty to say about the ministry of both the Tabernacle and Temple. To let them go to ruin was considered a disgrace, and people gave generously to supply the Tabernacle and restore the Temple. Neither the Tabernacle nor the Temple were simple brick and mortar structures, either. Both had plenty of silver and gold, the finest of linens, and the most talented workmen. Look up how much was invested in those places of worship, and calculate the cost by today's equivalent. It's mind boggling. And it was by God's direction and approval!
I'm not saying that any church is flawless. Most can probably be improved upon. I certainly don't agree with every individual, nor do I believe every program is built with wisdom. Some churches are probably beyond reform. What concerns me is that you were satisfied and happy with your church before reading the book. My question is, what caused the spirit of discontent you now feel? Is it because you realized your church isn't adhering to biblical principles or because you listened to a critical spirit? Christians are supposed to test all things. As far as I'm concerned, that book didn't pass the test of sound biblical exegesis nor unbiased historical commentary.
The Bible tells us to disassociate with fellow Christians because of sin for which they refuse to repent. Is your church filled with unrepentant sinners, or does it contain Christians who are flawed individuals that sincerely want to become more Christlike? Who does the Bible admonish, and who does it praise? Where do complainers fall on that scale? What about peacemakers? If you have valid complaints, what have you done to address those complaints, and how have you helped the church to rectify them? What does the Bible say to do?
Perhaps everyone who likes to criticize churches should turn the same spotlight upon themselves. Then, perhaps true reform will occur.
And a huge AMEN ! Very very well put !
I have not read the book, nor do I care to read books that are the opinions of others on Christianity, and how they think things should be done !
I chose to stick with God's word, and all those books that people are writing are NOT God's word.
I have not read the book, nor do I care to read books that are the opinions of others on Christianity, and how they think things should be done !
I chose to stick with God's word, and all those books that people are writing are NOT God's word.
So much of what is done in the church today is NOT in God's word, but many of us today ignorantly accept that it is. Pagan Christianity actually uses scripture and other historical references to show us how things were done when the church was first established on the Earth. Don't judge the book till you've read it.
I'm not saying you're doing this, but don't NOT read it out of fear that it may "shake you" a little. I almost didn't read it for this very reason, but in the end I'm very glad that I did.
I have not read the book, nor do I care to read books that are the opinions of others on Christianity, and how they think things should be done !
I chose to stick with God's word, and all those books that people are writing are NOT God's word.
Marian, I see what you are saying, but a lot of times it is'nt just someones opinion, it has been their life experience.
Growing up being a pastors kid, and witnessing all of the hypocricy I understand more how we should not follow any man, but Christ alone.
When I compare the word of God to most churches they don't line up, all I see is men's ideas.
It is MY responsibility to tithe...
once it is given to the church...it is THEIR responsibility to use it wisely..
They (church leaders, pastor and accountant ministry leaders) will be held accountable to how they spend it...
I understand what you're saying, but I disagree. I think it's one thing if you're tithing to the church you attend because you believe firmly that that's what God wants you to do with your tithe or donation. However, if you get to the point that I and many other people have where you start to question whether God REALLY wants the money you give to go to a church budget and believe that He would rather that money go somewhere that it will really be helping someone in need, then it becomes OUR responsibility to make sure it happens. We can't just give it to our church and forget about it because we've done our part. I don't believe for a second God would be okay with that, which is why I'm struggling right now because up until recently I was a cheerful giver of my tithe to my church.
I'm at the point now where I feel God wants the money I give, which is a tithe I've always given cheerfully and not because it is required, to go somewhere it will help needy people. Since as of now I'm still a member of my church and more than likely will be for a while, I DO feel I need to at least donate to help with expenses; however, those donations will be extra and as the Lord leads me to give and not part of my tithe.
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I have a feeling that it's going to back up a lot of my own opinions about how the church is run, (and has been, for these hundreds of years). I haven't attended church for quite a long time, and part of the reason are issues of this sort.
