For those that read "Pagan Christianity"... (Torah, Epistles, churches)

[ShinyHappyLucy]

I've been wanting to post this for a while but have been kind of nervous because I think it makes me look bad.

Ever since reading this book, I've looked at a lot of things within the church much differently, and besides praying about it I'm not sure how to deal with it. The biggest issue is the issue of tithing. I love to tithe, so whether or not I should tithe isn't the issue. The issue is should I still tithe to the "church" I attend, or should I tithe to a Christian organization that I know for sure helps other people? Don't get me wrong. My church DOES help other people and even has a food pantry. We probably do more outreach than any other local church in the area. However, it now really bothers me knowing that some of the money I tithe is going to pay salaries of church staff and building upkeep. This in turn makes me feel like I don't deserve to be a part of that church at all if I'm not tithing there, and that isn't what I want either. I'm so conflicted on what to do, but in my heart I want 100% of the money I tithe to go to help other people. How do I know what to do? I've prayed and prayed about it but no answers.

Another issue I have is the praise-and-worship part of the service. This was always my favorite part because I love to sing, but now when the praise-and-worship leader is in front of the church playing her guitar and leading the vocals I'm much more aware of when she switches up the music or tells us over and over again to repeat a certain verse. I just see it as HER worship and not MINE, which I hate. I really, really hate that I'm seeing it this way because I didn't used to, but at the same time I also feel like I'm in kindergarten having someone tell me over and over again to repeat whatever verse she wants to sing. Does that make sense? I know it sounds bad.

Another is that I hate to see the collection plate being passed around. I feel like it draws attention to everyone who isn't giving in any particular week, which I know can make some people feel bad.

There are probably a few others, but these are the three that really stand out to me the most. I didn't have these issues before I read this book. Leaving my church right now really isn't an option because this is basically how it is in all churches, and there are no house churches around here anyway. Plus DH would never do the house church thing. He never goes to church, but I know if/when he does he will want it to be our current church because he likes it there. I also really love the people and have no issues with them. I like the pastor a lot even though I'm starting to disagree with the issue of pastors receiving a salary out of the tithe.

Is anyone else experiencing this? How do you deal with it? I know I sound bad. I promise I'm not. I'm just feeling really confused since reading this book and unsure of what exactly, if anything, I should do.

[Asthedeer]

Originally Posted by Content_Christian

I've been wanting to post this for a while but have been kind of nervous because I think it makes me look bad.

Ever since reading this book, I've looked at a lot of things within the church much differently, and besides praying about it I'm not sure how to deal with it. The biggest issue is the issue of tithing. I love to tithe, so whether or not I should tithe isn't the issue. The issue is should I still tithe to the "church" I attend, or should I tithe to a Christian organization that I know for sure helps other people? Don't get me wrong. My church DOES help other people and even has a food pantry. We probably do more outreach than any other local church in the area. However, it now really bothers me knowing that some of the money I tithe is going to pay salaries of church staff and building upkeep. This in turn makes me feel like I don't deserve to be a part of that church at all if I'm not tithing there, and that isn't what I want either. I'm so conflicted on what to do, but in my heart I want 100% of the money I tithe to go to help other people. How do I know what to do? I've prayed and prayed about it but no answers.

Another issue I have is the praise-and-worship part of the service. This was always my favorite part because I love to sing, but now when the praise-and-worship leader is in front of the church playing her guitar and leading the vocals I'm much more aware of when she switches up the music or tells us over and over again to repeat a certain verse. I just see it as HER worship and not MINE, which I hate. I really, really hate that I'm seeing it this way because I didn't used to, but at the same time I also feel like I'm in kindergarten having someone tell me over and over again to repeat whatever verse she wants to sing. Does that make sense? I know it sounds bad.

Another is that I hate to see the collection plate being passed around. I feel like it draws attention to everyone who isn't giving in any particular week, which I know can make some people feel bad.

There are probably a few others, but these are the two that really stand out to me the most. I didn't have these issues before I read this book. Leaving my church right now really isn't an option because this is basically how it is in all churches, and there are no house churches around here anyway. Plus DH would never do the house church thing. He never goes to church, but I know if/when he does he will want it to be our current church because he likes it there. I also really love the people and have no issues with them. I like the pastor a lot even though I'm starting to disagree with the issue of pastors receiving a salary out of the tithe.

Is anyone else experiencing this? How do you deal with it? I know I sound bad. I promise I'm not. I'm just feeling really confused since reading this book and unsure of what exactly, if anything, I should do.

Maybe give the book to your pastor.

We currently do not attend church because of those issues and others.

Ask your husband what he wants you to do

1Pe 3:1Likewise, ye wives, [be] in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;

[SeekerSA]

Hi all

I left the church more than 3 years ago and I was the head mucian and a P&W leader. IMO there is little relevance in the churches of today as all have essentially adopted a Torah (book) based and temple based system.

Here is a very good e-book that is fiction based on fact but will really help you out with the questions you may have.

As for tithing, it is not an NT requirement but cheerful giving is - however I do believe you have the right to give to the charity of your choice - remembering of course those too have expenses but more like 10% of the total take whereas most churches are the exact opposite.

Here is the book

So you don't want to go to church anymore?

A few quotes:

There is nothing the Father desires for you more than that you fall squarely in the lap of his love and never move from that place for the rest of your life. God's plan from the days of creation to the day of the Second Coming was designed to bring people into the relationship of love that the Father, Son and Spirit have shared for eternity. He wants nothing less—and nothing else!


This is no distant God who sent his Son with a list of rules to follow or rituals to practice. His mission was to invite us into his love—into a relationship with his Father that he described as friendship. But what do we do? We are so quickly captured by a work-driven religious culture that thrives on guilt, conformity and manipulation that it devours the very love it seeks to sustain.


Won't it be a joy again to wake up confident about being loved by God every day, without having to earn it by any act of righteousness on your part? That is the secret to first love. Don't try to earn it. Know that you are accepted and loved, not for what you can do for God, or somehow hoping that you will be worthy of his acceptance, but because his greatest desire is to have you as one of his children. Jesus came to remove any obstacle that would prevent that from happening.

[Miss Blue]

Content Christian, from the first pages of that book and all through it I was filled with a sort of (not sure how to say this) peace or maybe comfort in the fact that the book actually was confirming and expanding on what I had been questioning for years..I had already quit going to church for many of the reasons in this book and other very personal reasons..My main problem was that the place I attended for so many years kept insisting that they were the origional church that was set up by the apostles and I never bought it..It was always too plain from the bible that none of the churches I knew could claim that..I was bothered by the legalisms, the one man show (preacher), the entertainment, the witholding of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, the guilt trips of not doing what they wanted me to do, not what I felt I was supposed to do for the Lord..
I went on to read the next book by the author called "The Untold Story of the Early Church" another eye opener for me that gave me new respect for the apostles and the church beginnings..It puts the epistles in chronological order and in line with Acts and just completely opened my heart and soul and showed me Pauls teachings in a new light that lined up with what I knew in my heart, but could not explain..I am now reading the third book called "Reimaging Church" which has so many more revelations for me and tells what goes on in some of the home churches and how they begin, how they grow and how they operate in the community..

I can't make anyones decision nor would I tell someone to quit attending services..that is something that you will have to pray for guidance of the Holy Spirit, but I have asked for them to find any home churches in this area..In the meantime, I will continue to read, search, pray and minister as best I know how and wait for the Lord to send me where He will..I have no problem going to a church now and then to worship and fellowship with other believers, but I really feel at this point that I can never "join" another (modern day) church ...

[GCSTroop]

I have an idea and I don't think you're going to like it.

Why don't you be up front and honest to your pastor and/or the people you see this coming from? Someone suggested giving the book to your pastor and I thought that was a wonderful idea. I think that it would actually give you a lot of insight into the agenda of the church and/or its leadership by gauging the reaction of the individuals once you tactfully and respectfully present the problem to them. By no means do I advocate being accusatory or confrontational but bring it up and see how it goes. I think you'll gain a lot of insight on their reaction alone. Do they avoid the topic and try to convince you of the consequences of not tithing? Perhaps they get extremely defensive and try to flip it around on you? That would give me a pretty good idea that the things you fear are true may indeed have some truth to them.

On the flip side, the reaction could be a positive one. Sometimes people do things without realizing the overt nature of their actions because they just don't realize what's happening or how other people feel by something.

My best guess is that if you approach the person/people about your concerns you will get a real feel for the situation at hand. I also think that it may be a little nerve bending because you don't want to call into question the authority of the church or religious institution that you attend. Quite honestly, I think if people questioned things a little more they might find out the true reality behind things. I don't think there is anything wrong with trying to get to the bottom of things especially if you're concerned about it. What's the absolute worst thing that could happen if you questioned it and were wrong? What's the absolute worst thing that could happen if you questioned it and were right?

I hope that helps...

[Miss Blue]

Troop has some good advice about being honest and getting to the point..I agree and would like to add that If there is someone in the church you are very close friends with you may bring the subject up with them and maybe ask if they would want to also read the book..You know, I was somewhat silent on my opinions on the early church, simply there always seemed to be someone to come along with verse after verse to show me how wrong I was to be criticizing the church and trying to cause confusion, or that if I had questions, I should ask my husband(needless to say, that didn't sit well with me either, because I would rather take it to the Lord)If your church is not legalistic and is open to discussion maybe you could bring the book up for discussion. in one of the many groups some of these churches have today...The book does include scripture along with history that can also be verified..

[cg81]

I don't have a lot of advice, Content, but one thought I had on the issue of tithing.. if you look at the temple situation at the time when the widow gave her two mites, you can be sure that she probably could have had grave doubts about where her money was going... and yet she gave it all to the Lord!

I agree with you that having paid church staff is unscriptural.. yet at this point if you are still going to that church, IMO you can give your money freely "as to the Lord, and not unto men". Give as you feel! If you feel to give less, and give more somewhere else, do that!

[ShinyHappyLucy]

Thanks, everyone. I have a few things to add, but my kids need lunch. I'll be back later but wanted to let you know I appreciate your responses.

[b. frank]

I see a big problem for you: If you like your church and want to stay there, why would you have a problem with the staff getting paid and the building getting kept up? If you believe that the church is good, isn't paying for those things part of helping people? Do you now distrust the intentions of the staff? That is the real question. If you are OK with the staff itself, then where else should their salary come from besides tithing? Should they only volunteer? How would they feed themselves?
If you would rather there be no staff besides volunteers, and no building upkeep without 100% volunteer help, then why even bother with the place? The church would need to dissolve or change completely before you are satisfied.
I think it is totally justified for you to leave the church if you don't believe in it anymore, but at least get to the bottom of what you really believe about your individual church first. Don't judge every church the same because a book has told you that all churches are misguided.

[adamus]

i'm enjoying reading everyones ideas on this stuff. good question content. That book sure does mess people up huh? i think in a good way. but know this, that in time and in walking with Jesus, surely things will get more clear and surely you will have a greater contentment and peace knowing that you are still in the center of God's will even as you war in your brain concerning some things.. all of it for sure is and will be used by God in your life for HIs glory.