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Jesus said to the scribes and Pharisees (claiming to know God)--"Ye hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying, 'This people draweth near unto me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men'" (Mat. 15:7-9).
The Pharisees were righteous: Matthew 5:20 says, “Except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.”
They were righteous; they were saved, but they were looking for the wrong inheritance. They won’t enter into the coming Kingdom, which is done by obedience. They’re still in the family.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist
Jesus said to His disciples--"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, ("professer only") shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of my Father ("possesser"), who is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in they name? And in thy name have cast out demons? And in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you; depart from me, ye that work iniquity" (Mat. 7:21-23).
So, you add “possessor” and “professor”, although it’s not in the Scriptures. The idea isn’t even really there. But, it makes it fit certain doctrinal stances.
Instead, look at what this passage is talking about: Not everyone shall enter into the Kingdom!
It’s not talking about whether they were spiritually saved or not. In fact, they did all these great works in his name, and he doesn’t say, “You did not!” He says they were lawless; they were doing these works under their own drive, and not the will of God. Like those who practice the sign-gifts today: Many people think they are demonic, but I think Scriptures will support that while some of them are demonic, some of them are simply lawless and looking for a sign.
There is no such concept as “professor not possessor” in Scripture. The only idea presented in the Bible is that they are saved individuals who are not being obedient, so will not have an entrance into the coming Kingdom.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Betsey Lane
The WAGES of sin is DEATH!
And thanatos death is loss of an entrance into the millennial Kingdom; it's the death of the soul. It's death for the age to come.
What makes you think that you become unborn and lose your spiritual salvation?
The Pharisees were righteous: Matthew 5:20 says, “Except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.”
They were righteous; they were saved, but they were looking for the wrong inheritance. They won’t enter into the coming Kingdom, which is done by obedience. They’re still in the family.
So, you add “possessor” and “professor”, although it’s not in the Scriptures. The idea isn’t even really there. But, it makes it fit certain doctrinal stances.
Instead, look at what this passage is talking about: Not everyone shall enter into the Kingdom!
It’s not talking about whether they were spiritually saved or not. In fact, they did all these great works in his name, and he doesn’t say, “You did not!” He says they were lawless; they were doing these works under their own drive, and not the will of God. Like those who practice the sign-gifts today: Many people think they are demonic, but I think Scriptures will support that while some of them are demonic, some of them are simply lawless and looking for a sign.
There is no such concept as “professor not possessor” in Scripture. The only idea presented in the Bible is that they are saved individuals who are not being obedient, so will not have an entrance into the coming Kingdom.
And thanatos death is loss of an entrance into the millennial Kingdom; it's the death of the soul. It's death for the age to come.
What makes you think that you become unborn and lose your spiritual salvation?
The "Trinity" is not in the Scriptures either--do you deny that as well?
The concept of false believers as opposed to true believers in clear in the Scriptures. There is indeed a concept of "professer" and "possesser!" What is your problem with that?
What is Jesus saying in Matthew 5:20? Is He speaking about true righteousness that is pleasing to God or the righteousness men believe they possess but do not? It is the latter. Jesus is in no way saying that the Pharisees and scribes were righteous and that they are an example for others to follow in order to enter the kingdom of heaven! He is ridiculing their pompous, pretentious claim to righteousness.
What else did Jesus say about the scribes and Pharisees? When they sought a sign, Jesus called them "an evil and adulterous generation" (Mat. 12:38, 39). When the Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus with their righteous attitude condemning His disciples for eating with unwashed hands, Jesus said "Why do you ALSO transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition . . . . Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about YOU, saying, 'These people draw near to Me with their mouth and honor Me with their lips [professers only], BUT their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'" (Mat. 15:1ff).
When the chief priests and Pharisees heard Jesus' parable of the wicked vinedressers, they knew that He was speaking of them and equating them to those wicked vinedressers (Mat. 21:33ff). They would be destroyed.
The clearest indication of Jesus' assessment of the scribes and Pharisees of His day is found in Matthew 23. They are NOT saved! They are to be condemned for their guilt in ALL the righteous blood shed on the earth. "But woe to you, scribes, Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in." They are called "blind guides," "fools," "blind Pharisee," "whitewashed tombs," "serpents," and "brood of vipers." Again, they are not saved!
There is not teaching that people can be saved but not enter the kingdom. All saved are in the kingdom!
[20] The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
[21] But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
[22] All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
[23] Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
Now after reading the above verses I'm sure most can relate. We all have sinned, but have turned away from our transgressions and accepted. And according to verse (22) our transgressions, "....shall not be mentioned unto him:...", and we shall live.
Now let's read below at what happens to the righteous when they turn away from thier righteousness.
[24] But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
Now notice it said ALL of his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
[25] Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
[26] When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
[27] Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
[28] Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
So God asks the question, "....Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?"
They seem equal to me. When a sinner turns from his evil ways and follows God, should he not be rewarded. And on the other hand, when the righteous turn away from God, should he receive the same as the wicked that turned to God? No! When the righteous turns from God, he dies in his sin.
So is the righteous saved that turn away from God?
Now let's look at some more scriptures concerning the book of life.
Exod 32; [33] And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
Now I ask you, If the person, whose name was obviously IN the book of life had not sinned, would his name be blotted out? Is this person "saved" as long as his name is in the book?
Pslm 69;
[26] For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded.
[27] Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness.
[28] Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.
So again we find that it is possible for some to have thier name removed from the book of life. Notice whose names remain....the righteous.
Let's see what happens to those that endure to the end.
Matt 10;
[22] And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Rev 3;
[5] He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Rev 17;
[8] The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world
Rev 20;
[12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. [15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 21;
[27] And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
So, what do we know for a fact?
1. It is possible for a name that is in the Book of Life to be removed.
2. It is possible for a righteous person to turn away from his righteousness and die in his sins.
3. It is possible for a sinner to turn from his trangressions and become righteous.
4. Only the righteous names will be in the Book of Life.
5. He that endureth to the end shall be saved.
6. If your name is not found written in the Book of Life you will be cast into the lake of fire.
So here you have it. You can make up your own minds, but as for me....I will do like Paul;
[27] But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. I Cor 9.
Once saved always saved ? Nope .
See Matthew 13 3-9 (NRSV) And he told them many things in parables, saying: Listen ! A sower went out to sow. And as he sowed, some seeds fell on the path, and the birds came and ate them up. Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they did not have much soil, and they sprang up quickly, since they had no depth of soil. But when the sun rose, they were scorched; and since they had no root they withered away. Other seeds fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked them. Other seeds fell on good soil and brought forth grain, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. Let anyone with ears listen.
I have to interject a few MAJOR key points here, because I feel that this information has been wisely put together, BUT it is off base. To disagree, I will have to do a simple copy and paste, because I still cannot figure out how to quote multiple times in a post.
**YOU WROTE: [24] But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
The Bible also says that when one receives the calling of God, that God will implant in him a "new heart", and upon further research, you find that you are "washed clean" in the blood of the lamb. The sins of the past are erased and forgiven. Once a "new heart" is implanted within you, then you begin to grown in Christ, and the "old sinful nature" is removed. In short, you begin to take on a new being in Christ. Once one is called to Christ, and undergoes this Christ-like "transformation", they are "preserved until the end". God spoke repeatedly that "no one shall remove them from My hands". He spoke clearly in saying that He knows His sheep by name, and NO ONE shall remove His sheep from His hand. Once called by the Holy Spirit, all of my extensive research has shown that the Lord will preserve His chosen ones TO THE END. They will NOT turn away from God. If the Lord says He names His sheep, then they are HIS sheep, and if they are written in the Book of Life, then to say that one can be removed from it is to say that GOD MAKES MISTAKES. God's pencil does NOT have an eraser on it. He is imutable. He DOES NOT make mistakes. Once He writes something, it is PERMANENT. Just like His love and the final sacrifice is permanent.
**YOU WROTE: Exod 32; [33] And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
Now I ask you, If the person, whose name was obviously IN the book of life had not sinned, would his name be blotted out? Is this person "saved" as long as his name is in the book?
If you are to quote one scripture to support your thoughts, then I might advise a lot more research. Finish reading Exodus. If you read PRIOR TO and AFTER the chapter, IN IT'S ENTIRETY, you will find that GOD ERASED NO ONE'S NAME OUT OF THE BOOK OF LIFE. Moses pleaded to be removed from the BOOK OF THE LIVING. THE BOOK OF THE LIVING IS A DIFFERENT BOOK THAN THE BOOK OF LIFE. This is clear if you clearly research this subject. The Book of the Living refers to life on earth. It does NOT refer to the elect. If it did, the reference that Moses spoke of in begging God to remove him from the book of the living wouldn't make sense. Moses had a very heavy burden on him at the time, and was essentially asking God to take him out of this life. God didn't. NEITHER DID GOD REMOVE ANYONE FROM THE BOOK OF LIFE that you are quoting in Exodus. Perhaps one might want to go back and read this chapter in it's entirety and get the full story!
**You wrote:
Pslm 69;
[26] For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded.
[27] Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness.
[28] Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.
BOOK OF THE LIVING AND BOOK OF LIFE= 2 TOTALLY DIFFERENT BOOKS! The Book of Life has all the saints names recorded. The Book of the living refers to life on earth. Complete research on the 2 will reveal this.
**You wrote: Rev 3; [5] He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
This is God RIGHT HERE speaking that his elect will overcome and that He does NOT remove a name from the Book of Life. If you misread the passage, it can give you the idea that this is a conditional statement (like, "If you do this, then I'll do that.") Again I refer back to the scriptures where Jesus AND God both say, on separate occasions, that no one will be removed from God's hand, and no one will be removed from Jesus' hand. His elect will be preserved until the end in the palm of His hand, and they will not turn away from Him.
You wrote: Rev 17;
[8] The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world
This is yet another re-affirmation that those who are NOT written in the Book of Life are the ones that will end up in hell. If you read before and after the verse, it's plain to understand. If one's name is written since the foundation of the world, then it is permanent. Ephesians speaks of this in the very beginning of the chapter. See Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, Adopted sons of God cannot be kicked out of God's house. See/Research: Adoption/Election
You wrote: Rev 20 [15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Notice it does not say "whosoever has been removed from the Book of Life..." Whomever is not written in the book, goes into the fire. Some signs can be given on possibilities of who is in the Book of Life, based on their outward rejection or disbelief in God, but it should never be assumed that one is not saved. One can be saved on their death bed, just as the man who died next to Jesus on the cross, who accepted Jesus as his Lord and Savior at the very end, and was saved.
Rev 21;
[27] And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Another testimony that if one is written in the Book, they will enter the kingdom of heaven.
So, what do we know for a fact?
1. It is NOT possible for a name that is in the Book of Life to be removed.
2. It is NOT possible for a CHOSEN person to turn away from his righteousness and die in his sins, once he has been adopted by God.
3. It is possible for a sinner to turn from his trangressions and become righteous.
4. Only the righteous names will be in the Book of Life.
5. He that endureth to the end shall be saved.
6. If your name is not found written in the Book of Life you will be cast into the lake of fire.
YOU WROTE: Once saved always saved ? Nope .
I have come to the conclusion after SO MUCH STUDY on the Book of Life, that the terminology "once saved always saved" is the WORST POSSIBLE combination of words that I have ever seen. It leaves much too much room for error and judgement. It is not clear enough in 4 words. It should not even be used, in my humble opinion. Rather, it would be better to ask the question: "If one's name is written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, written in God's handwriting, and God says 'no one can remove them from My hand', then is it really possible for THOSE CHOSEN ONES to lose their salvation?" I'd have to say the answer is "No."
Please understand I would not have even attempted to answer or add comment to this had I not literally taken a week off of work to study this topic of the Book of Life in it's entirety. Morning, noon and night, I studied this, cross referencing scriptures, opening up 7 Bibles on my table, looking in concordances, reading opposing commentaires, etc. Finally, when the week was over, (as a matter of fact Friday night), after very little sleep and seeing spots in front of my eyes, not speaking to hardly a soul, and barely eating a thing, I had found my answers. And I don't believe I have been fooled. It was exhausting and to say the least, scary. The only scripture I had to wrestle with at the very end was Revelation 22:19 which says "And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book." .....The question here was the final question for me at the end of my exhaustive study.... what would happen to someone who took away from the words of Revelations? Would he lose his salvation? My final answer on this was, after much thought, "Wait a minute. God will take away his PART in?" It sounded to me as if God was clearly giving a warning through John, that if one even thought of doing such a thing, they would find that they were one of the ones who were destined to be burned in the lake of fire. One cannot dismiss the extensive evidence that those who are to be saved are those written in the Book of Life, so for those chosen ones who know such a thing, if they were to hear such a warning, would they not take this as a serious indication of where they are going in the end? The mere act in itself of changing the words would indicate that if they follow through with it, they were never really chosen from the beginning? I dont think a true follower of the Lord would ever take such a risk.
But then again, these are only my thoughts based on my research. Thanks for listening.
I could only take listening to the first few with a completely open mind, and after hearing most of it, discredited it. Teh first few are book promotions, and the reference they made to the book of Jude was a bit, "off base". They were referring to being 'saved' on earth as being the same as being 'saved' in the sense of eternal salvation. (as they referenced: Jude 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.) There's a lot more that goes along with 'eternal security' than the way they are looking at the topic in general. And they also sound like salesmen, if you dont mind me saying.
BOOK OF THE LIVING AND BOOK OF LIFE= 2 TOTALLY DIFFERENT BOOKS! The Book of Life has all the saints names recorded. The Book of the living refers to life on earth. Complete research on the 2 will reveal this.
This passage is Psalms is the very same word as life. IE the Tree of Life. "חי" Transliteration "chay"
How can the books be different when the meaning is the same? This would be no different than saying the "book of the dead" is real as well, imo.
Show me some of this research you have done, for I am fascinated to learn.
I'll post more after work tomorrow, but this is curious to say the least. 2 books, hmm.
I could only take listening to the first few with a completely open mind, and after hearing most of it, discredited it. Teh first few are book promotions, and the reference they made to the book of Jude was a bit, "off base". They were referring to being 'saved' on earth as being the same as being 'saved' in the sense of eternal salvation. (as they referenced: Jude 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.) There's a lot more that goes along with 'eternal security' than the way they are looking at the topic in general. And they also sound like salesmen, if you dont mind me saying.
Well myself and many others used to believe in eternal security, there are many testimonies on that website and others.
Salesman , yeah that is why he offers so many free things.
Would you care to tell me your interpretation of Revelation 3:16?
There are so many examples in the Bible. I don't have time to go over them right now, but one that comes to mind is the wise and foolish virgins and that many are called but few chosen.
I would say the majority of "christians" have actually been called but how many of them will be chosen because they were good and faithful servants?
We are told many times not to be ignorant & not to be deceived.
Why would we be told this and also to examine ourselves if eternal security is so?
I see no fear of God in such a beleif, and we should know that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.
This passage is Psalms is the very same word as life. IE the Tree of Life. "חי" Transliteration "chay"
How can the books be different when the meaning is the same? This would be no different than saying the "book of the dead" is real as well, imo.
Show me some of this research you have done, for I am fascinated to learn.
I'll post more after work tomorrow, but this is curious to say the least. 2 books, hmm.
There are several different books, but it's advised to read the whole context of whichever books are spoken of. For example:
BOOK OF LIFE: (the title "book of life" is found in Phillipians and Revelations. In researching the passages, I found it to be interesting that each one references the saved people being previously written in the book from the foundation of the world's beginning. To understand this, I had to read each scripture in it's complete form, word for word. I also read previous chapters/scriptures leading up to each of these scriptures, then continued to read after these scriptures. You can also run a search on 'the book of life' in an unabridged concordance, or even easier in blueletterbible.com, from which I have copied and pasted the following scriptures..)
-Phil 4:3 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and [with] other my fellowlabourers, whose names [are] in the book of life." and also:
-Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.(names were written at the foundation of the world)
-Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
-Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened,which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. ("works" fans, keep reading) Rev 20:15 Andwhosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
FOR REFERENCE PURPOSES, HERE ARE MORE BOOKS SPOKEN OF:
-book of the generation of Adam (Gen 5:1)
-"book of the living" the words 'book of the living' are only referred to/found in Psalm 69:28 where the writer speaks of his persecution by his enemies "Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous."; a plea for God to take their lives, much like the book Moses spoke of in Exodus, because Moses was undergoing much turmoil in trying to negotiate for the people's sins
-book of the law (law of Moses; law of God; assumed to be same book) Spoken of in the Old Testament
-book of the records of chronicles (Esther)
-book of the kings of Judah and Israel (2 Chronicles)
-book of remembrance: (Mal 3:16 Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard [it], and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.)
-book of the generation of Jesus Christ: (Matt 1:1 very beginning of the New Testament, The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.)
-book of the prophet Esaias. (Luke 4)
IN PARTICULAR, THE EXODUS REFERENCE IS THE ONE YOU MENTIONED. I found this to be tricky in my research, so I followed it as carefully as possible, again, reading the verses that came before and after the scriptures mentioned here:
book of the covenant (spoken of in Ex 24:7 And he took thebook of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.)
Notice THEN, in Exodus 32:32: "Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written." 33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book." (Though God spared the lives after all; He blotted no one out... continue reading in Exodus)
-See also Daniel's vision of Jesus in Dan 12:1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall befound written in the book.
Based on the above scriptures that speak about the book of life, I equated this scripture to be speaking about the book of life, because no other 'books' would make sense here.
__________________________________________________ ____________
There are also different 'trees' referred to:
Gen 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
They are referred to/defined in different ways:
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Prov 3:18 She [is] a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy [is every one] that retaineth her.
Prov 11:30 The fruit of the righteous [is] a tree of life; and he that winneth souls [is] wise.
Prov 13:12 Hopedeferred maketh the heart sick: but [when] the desire cometh, [it is] a tree of life.
Prov 13:12 A wholesome tongue [is] a tree of life: but perverseness therein [is] a breach in the spirit.
Rev 22:14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:22 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, [was there] the tree of life, which bare twelve [manner of] fruits, [and] yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree [were] for the healing of the nations.
Well myself and many others used to believe in eternal security, there are many testimonies on that website and others. Salesman , yeah that is why he offers so many free things.
First of all, I did not mean to be offensive to say that the speakers on the site that you sent us to sound like "salesman", but the first 2 links were promoting a book which is for sale. Then the radio broadcast.... if one listens, they SOUND as if they are a bit "cocky", and as if those who believe in eternal salvation are foolish people. So with the SOUND of their context, and after listening to them for quite some time, they seemed to be adding too much 'opinion' using some various verses and adding to them. They were leaving out quite a bit in my humble opinion. They were leaving out the part of the bible that speaks of Jesus saying that no one would be removed from His hand, for example. And various other significant parts of the Bible that play a big part in the subject at hand.
First of all, I did not mean to be offensive to say that the speakers on the site that you sent us to sound like "salesman", but the first 2 links were promoting a book which is for sale. Then the radio broadcast.... if one listens, they SOUND as if they are a bit "cocky", and as if those who believe in eternal salvation are foolish people. So with the SOUND of their context, and after listening to them for quite some time, they seemed to be adding too much 'opinion' using some various verses and adding to them. They were leaving out quite a bit in my humble opinion. They were leaving out the part of the bible that speaks of Jesus saying that no one would be removed from His hand, for example. And various other significant parts of the Bible that play a big part in the subject at hand.
I did not listen to all the audios. I just read the studies below which are backed by scripture.
Are you going to answer my other questions? You don't have to, just curious.
And the number one verse that eternal security proponents use is that verse that speaks of no MAN being able to pluck them out of the FATHER'S hands. I agree with that, no MAN can pluck them out, but if someone claiming to follow Him produces no fruit, does not follow His commandments, and lives for the world, HE will spue them out. That is totally different than a man being able to pluck them out. That is God taking action, not any man.
Jhn 10:29My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand
Please study Revelation regarding the seven churches.
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