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Yes good question, we could also ask why so many people are brainwashed?
Here we go again talking about hell.
"Hell" is the afterparty of Life
I'm apparently going there along with many of you!
On a serious note, hell is an earthly state. You damn yourself to "hell" when you live in fear, guilt, anger and resentments. Those emotions can eat you alive, that is what hell is. And actually most people have visited their own hell, I don't need to describe what it's like. We shift out of a third dimentional state to a higher state of consciousness to be free of this hell.
I'm not sure what category I would fall under fundamentalist or not, but I do believe that God has the right to read each of our hearts and determine if we are righteous in His eyes.
I don't believe there is a place of eternal hellfire and torment for the unrighteous. That would not be loving. But if someone does not have the heart condition to be righteous, then for the sake of the righteous I see no problem with God decided to cut them off from existence. I think God is being loving by providing this opportunity to all...we all have the opportunity to correct our behavior and change our lives. How unfair and unloving to the righteous to allow the wicked to continue to exist and cause turmoil.
Well, at least you would have God to be a little more merciful than the average fundamentalist. Better to be outright annihilated, than to be tortured, that's for certain.
As far as fairness, well, on the other side of the grave, I don't think anyone is going to "cause turmoil". I believe all will recognize God's goodness, and that his mercy will extend to all. Wickedness, as we understand it, will certainly not exist. Using Hitler as an example, once again, what difference could it possibly make to me, (or anyone else, for that matter), whether he recognizes his Creator on the other side of the grave, as opposed to this side? His actions on this side of death were hideous, indeed, and I do believe that he will be accountable for them, up to a point. But, if God can forgive them on this side, I see no reason why he will not do so on the other. Even the fundamentalist says that if Hitler went through that "magic" formula, he would be saved, even up to the point just before death, which means that he could have a mansion right next door to Billy Graham! So, what possible difference could it make, to the rest of us, if salvation happens one second before death, or if it happens after death? I think there's just a lot of folks who don't like the idea of sharing Heaven with someone who racked up BIG sins, as opposed to their own, even though they claim that God sees all sin as the same. Reminds me of the story of the labourers in Matthew 20:1-16, who were hired, at different times during the day, and yet they each were paid the same amount. The ones who had been working all day thought they should get paid more than those who came later. Yet they received exactly what they had originally agreed to. And, everyone got paid.
If there is any sort of a hell, it would have to consist of a punishment that is redemptive and corrective, else what is the point? God can't do any better than to roast people? Good grief! A quote I read once says, "Hell provides the ultimate motive to become a Christian...Hell is also the strongest case against the Christian faith, for it is nothing less than the most sadistic torture ever devised...There is no point to Hell, so it becomes merely a cruel instrument of sadism. Sadistic torture of any person by another person is unacceptable. Why do Christians think it's okay when God does this?" Is that how we really want to see God, as a torturer? That little guy in the jungle is better off, not hearing such a terrible thing about his Creator.
Another quote that I just read a few days ago, that really struck me, "What is a gift? Does a gift require something in return? If a gift is given but depends upon an action, or reaction, on the part of the one receiving 'the gift', doesn't it then become a trade? Even a decision to accept the gift on the part of the recipient is an obligation if it is demanded by the 'giver', and therefore nullifies the gift. It is now a trade...a transaction...and the recipient is the debtor."
If other folks really want to read, translate, and interpret the Bible this way, and if they really believe such a hideous thing about their Creator, they are most welcome to do so. But, as I said before, the horse got out of the barn on that one, and I'm not rounding it back up. It is free to carry on without me.
Throughout scripture there is no such thing as an unpardonable sin ie: Ps 103:2 "Bless the LORD, O my soul, And forget not all His benefits: 3 Who forgives all your iniquities, Who heals all your diseases, 4 Who redeems your life from destruction, Who crowns you with lovingkindness and tender mercies"
Just another example how it is human nature to take one verse and assume the worst because of bad translating, even if it contradicts the rest of scripture.
28: Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
29: But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation: (King James Version)
Now, THAT sounds familiar, doesn't it? How about:
28: Verily, I say unto you All things shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, the sins and the profanities wherewithal they shall profane;
29: But, whosoever shall revile against the Holy Spirit, hath no forgiveness, unto times age-abiding, but is guilty of an age-abiding sin: (Rotherham)
What??? Who said that?
So,,, could it be that the unforgiveness spoken of will only last for a two distinct time periods — this age and the age to come?
Why is Christiandom so quick to embrace 'unpardonable sin' doctrine based on one passage? Especially when we are taught in many many places to ALWAYS forgive? Does God have lower standards for Himself?
The tragedy here is that through the ages Satan has tormented many a mind with this concept that they may have committed a sin which cannot be repented of/forgiven. If this were were true then John should have said "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world - except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit"
And "Who is the propitiation not only for our sins - except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, but also for the sins of the whole world - except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit".
And "God has laid upon Him the iniquity of us all - all iniquity except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit that is"
And "By His stripes we are healed - unless we have blasphemed the Holy Spirit"
blessings, - Byron
PS: The word “aion†is used in the Greek text of the 'hath never forgiveness" passage, but is left out by the King James translators altogether. Was this a simple error, or did they understand that the word “aion†would put a limit on this unforgiveness, which would contradict their belief in never-ending punishment? This verse could/should be translated, “….hath no forgiveness unto times age-abiding†(Young's Literal Translation).
Which version of the Bible are you using? I was looking up the Young's Literal Translation and virtually every other translation of the texts and there seems to be a difference in the last few words of the passage. Yours used the age-abiding concept while several others emphasized the idea that the person wouldn't be forgiven in this world or the world to come, which can be more or less an allusion to the New Earth and New Jerusalem found in Revelation 21, at least that's how my studies and translations have understood it. This also led me to look at Revelation 20:11-15 and 21:5-8 which talk of the second death for those not found in the Lamb's book of life. What is your interpretation of the 2nd death and what evidence in the book of Revelations can support the idea that everyone, Jesus follower or not, will enter heaven? I look forward to hearing from you. God bless, from a brother of the Most High's family.
Oh and Firstborn, do you have any other external resources that might address the KJV translation and the use of the word "aion"; it was an interesting point and I feel it is one worth looking into.
If there is any sort of a hell, it would have to ....
Who says it has to?
Quote:
But, if God can forgive them on this side, I see no reason why he will not do so on the other.
He will not, for He has given no promise of this at all. And, what are you expecting Him to do more to reveal Himself on the other side, after death? Do you not believe He is able to reveal Himself to all mankind in this life?
Quote:
Is that how we really want to see God, as a torturer?
It makes no difference what we want to see God as... He IS.
Who created you?
Who made the world?
Who wrote the rules, and who will make sure it comes to pass, even tho mankind tries to figure it out and say, "It can't be so"?
It amazes all the people who are constantly questioning what God will do, or what He has done.
Apparently Isaiah 55. 8 and 9 are not verses they have ever read, or else they do not believe them
Isaiah 55.8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways" says the Lord, Isaiah 55 9 " For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts.
Also : Verse 10 " For as the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven,And do not return there, But water the earth, And make it bring forth and bud, That it may give seed to the sower And bread to the eater, Verse 11 So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth;
It shall not return to Me void,
But it shall prosper in the thing that I sent it."
The words from the Holy Scriptures that have been posted about eternal damnation are God's words. Whether you believe them or not are not going to change them. Whether you understand them or not will not change them.
He will not, for He has given no promise of this at all. And, what are you expecting Him to do more to reveal Himself on the other side, after death? Do you not believe He is able to reveal Himself to all mankind in this life?
It makes no difference what we want to see God as... He IS.
Who created you?
Who made the world?
Who wrote the rules, and who will make sure it comes to pass, even tho mankind tries to figure it out and say, "It can't be so"?
I think you know the answer...
Given my understanding of scripture, it only makes sense that hell is not a place of eternal torment/torture, (yes, I know, I'm wrong, never mind that I spent months reading, studying, and praying about this, both pro and con). So, I stand by my statement, if hell exists in any form, it would have to be something of a corrective/redemptive nature. Otherwise, what is the point? Does it really make sense that God is a torturer? Obviously it does to a great many people, but it doesn't to me. Could I be wrong? Perhaps, (that's why it took me so long to decide about universal salvation, and some people take longer. We don't generally jump onto this, straight out of the chute), but I wonder if the diehard hell-believers have ever considered the same? They believe that Jesus died for the world; so do I. I just happen to believe that he really did die for all of us, not just a lucky few who are smart enough to get it right, this side of the grave. It may not make sense to them, and I don't expect them to agree, (once upon a time, I woudn't have, either), but it makes sense to me.
We've had this dicussion before, CG81, and I respect your right to believe as you do, but I simply cannot do it. I did, once, and it cost me peace of mind, hope, joy, and happiness. So, we can catch that horse up, and beat him to death, but it will not cause me to change my mind. I hold to my belief that God does not just love us, but that he is love, plain and simple. And, love and eternal torture simply don't mix.
Oh and Firstborn, do you have any other external resources that might address the KJV translation and the use of the word "aion"; it was an interesting point and I feel it is one worth looking into.
Actually, usually the word is "aionios" which is the adjective form of the noun "aion", which is singular "age". So, "aionios" life would be "age-lasting" or "age-abiding".
As a rule of thumb, the semantic domain of an adjective cannot exceed the semantic domain of the noun from which it's formed. Therefore, "aionios", which is "age-lasting", cannot mean "forever and ever". (However, "from the ages to the ages" (probably cannot post the Greek in this forum) is an idiom that does mean "forever and ever".)
Now, if you look up the etymology of English word "eternal", you get this (emphasis mine):
c.1366 (in variant form eterne), from O.Fr. eternal, from L.L. æternalis, from L. æternus contraction of æviternus "of great age," from ævum "age." Eternity first attested c.1374. In the Mercian hymns, L. æternum is glossed by O.E. ecnisse.
So, the Bible contains passages that do talk about "forever and ever" ("eternal" in the modern sense), but only in a handful of passages, one of which does not contain the definite articles: Gal 1.5, Eph 3.21, Phl 4.20, 1Tm 1.17, 2Tm 4.18, Rev 1.6, Rev 1.18, Rev 4.9, Rev 4.10, Rev 7.12, Rev 10.6, Rev 11.15, Rev 14.11 (no definite article), Rev 15.7, Rev 19.3, Rev 20.10, Rev 22.5.
So, basically, although the Bible does talk about true eternity (without beginning or ending), it's only in two verses in the NT. The Bible also talks about "forever and ever", but only in the verses above. "Aionion" life, which is life for the age to come is what is talked about most often in the NT.
ETA: The lake of fire is forever and ever; hell is only temporary. Because modern Christianity, for whatever reason, has equated hell with the lake of fire, some people try to make the warnings of hell as a loss of spiritual salvation, while others completely ignore the real threat of hell for saved people. But, God loves us enough to offer unsaved people a way out of the lake of fire, and has offered people in the family the ability to be faithful and avoid the threat of Gehenna.
ETA2: The idea of hell (Gehenna) is usually used with "chastisement", although many English translators equate chastising punishment with punitive punishment. Hell is temporary, the lake of fire is not.
It amazes all the people who are constantly questioning what God will do, or what He has done.
Apparently Isaiah 55. 8 and 9 are not verses they have ever read, or else they do not believe them
Isaiah 55.8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways" says the Lord, Isaiah 55 9 " For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts.
Also : Verse 10 " For as the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven,And do not return there, But water the earth, And make it bring forth and bud, That it may give seed to the sower And bread to the eater, Verse 11 So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth;
It shall not return to Me void,
But it shall prosper in the thing that I sent it."
The words from the Holy Scriptures that have been posted about eternal damnation are God's words. Whether you believe them or not are not going to change them. Whether you understand them or not will not change them.
I absolutely believe (and understand) that God's ways are higher than our ways - not infinitely more barbaric.
Marianmark, you are obviously a precious lady and I would never set out to belittle your beliefs (I know, I KNOW - you believe they are God's beliefs, not yours). I just don't buy into the idea that God is as calloused as we are about human suffering. Everything I know about Him (personally) tells me He is quite the opposite and also tells me that He would be eternally miserable Himself if creatures He brought into existence were doomed to wallow in endless misery.
As far as scripture, we basically have 4,000 years where there is no mention of anything but death as the wages for sin, including the complete penalty phase of Gen. 3. Yes, the Isaiah passage is used (dead corpses on the ground w/'immortal' worms) and Daniel's 'everlasting' shame and contempt (Olam - same Hebrew word as Jonah's 'forever') but it is amazing that there is really no 'eternal afterlife torment' taught in the OT (see my references earlier in this thread - there are many more as well). The word 'hell' by our traditional English understanding absolutely did not belong anywhere in the old testament, as it always refers to Sheol AKA "The grave" and it is repeatedly stated that all go to that one place upon death and there is no thought, memory or action in Sheol.
I hope this would at least give pause for some who believe that there is irrefutable iron clad proof of unending punishment from cover to cover. There is not.
A point I'd like to make:
It would have been nice for Adam and Eve to have been told that billions were not only condemned to suffer on earth from there disobedience but then also eternally into the afterlife. It's amazing that Adam was so callous and evil to knowingly subject his descendants to that not to mention God, perfectly foreknowing thought it acceptable to move ahead with creation. Really amazing if you think about that.
The new testament obviously brings another dynamic into play, but it's not as cut and dried as it seems except for perhaps the revelation (Lake of Fire) which if not understood does look pretty grim
Nero, I appreciate your openness to discuss. Many just say "We can't question the Bible" and are closed. In the end at least you will be much more informed on the subject, even if you are not persuaded. I know Alpha wanted to believe in UR, but found it lacking of scriptural support.
I believe that most here just want to get it right but can't get past the millenia of myth attached to many of the bibles teachings.
I admit I don't understand how some sleep at night when holding to the horror of eternal agony doctrine (it's hard enough to deal with this present temporal agony) but I suppose one copes somehow.
IMO the traditions and ideas which cloud and obscure God's truth go way beyond a simple 'hell' discussion and into the origins of evil itself (the 'Lucifer' myth and so on) and also into the way scripture is mis-read and mis-interpreted and mis-translated and how the church itself sought to subjugate the masses when it became a political organization. You will also hear me say some shocking stuff like "Jesus did not come to found the Christian religion", which I believe is an absolutely true statement and becomes obvious upon a study of church history.
I've been here a few months now (not nearly as long as some) but after being miraculously re-born in 1977 (I was an atheist before that) I spent 31 years in Christian ministry - full time for the last 20 of those years (until April of this year) so I've pretty much seen/done it all from Billy Graham/Nicky Cruz/Luis Palau crusades to small missions to door to door evangelism as well as the day to day local church work (Three to four services a week and worship service/music/passion-play rehearsals and many many 10 - 12 hour days as is common in serious ministry). I have worked with some of the most honest and upright and dedicated people in ministry today, so I know first hand the integrity which can exist in todays evangelical circles in spite of the bad press Christianity gets.
During all that time I knew everything I know now about God's 'big picture' plan for the ages. For these times though I have been compelled to speak out and of course am no longer welcome to minister in most Christian circles (I am a worship leader) because of my adherence to universal reconciliation teaching (I announced it openly upon my resignation).
Of course - all this means nothing, I'm just a man, but I think it helps for people to know where I'm coming from (besides way out in left field ).
Oh and Firstborn, do you have any other external resources that might address the KJV translation and the use of the word "aion"; it was an interesting point and I feel it is one worth looking into.
This is a point of great debate between UR (ultimate reconciliation) theology and ET (eternal torment) theology. You can find 'proofs' and 'refutes' that will leave your head spinning. It is a very interesting study because 'aion' indisputably means 'age' while it's adjective 'aionion' is said to mean 'eternal' or 'perpetual' (which by all logic seems to be a total contradiction of it's root noun) and can mean "pertaining to the age" or "age-abiding" as well. Most UR proponents maintain it cannot possibly ever mean 'eternal' when it's root (aion) means 'age' as an adjective cannot have a totally different meaning from the noun from which it is derived.
Other interesting things come out too - such as the KJV rendering aion as 'world' in some cases.
The most famous refute by those who adhere to ET doctrine is it's back to back usage as aionion zoe (everlasting life) contrasted with aionion kolasin (everlasting punishment). It's a hard point for me to argue against except that "kolasin" (correction) that corrects nothing and is just perpetual ongoing correction makes no sense whatsoever. Another major ET refute is 'aoinian God' ie: eternal God. "Is God temporal" they ask? Well of course not, but 'God of the ages' does not limit Him to the ages either.
If someone is totally convinced that all 'unbelievers' will suffer perpetually without end if they die post age of accountability and pre-conversion, it is (admittedly) a hard sell to change their mind. Traditions die slow. I personally believe that God is sovereign and that He reveals truth as He wishes so I share what I know and let the chips fall where they may.
Eternal torment doctrine poses HUGE moral, ethical and philosophical dilemmas, but most Christians believe they must ignore all human conscience and any sense of decency and trust their bible translations and indeed, trust the bible itself to be perfect and inerrant. God therefore becomes a mysterious figure who's ways are "so high" that it is fine for Him to choose to create a race of creatures foreknowing most of them (by biblical standards) ain't going to make it.
The fact that it is total and complete insanity to do such a thing then just becomes a "higher moral" that we can't understand and is to be blindly trusted. I am said to be leaning on my human reasoning and not trusting in "God's inerrant word".
My main problem is that I know God and His nature and I know how he personally dealt with me and my sin problem ect. That's why I have absolutely no fear that I am mis-leading anyone and am only helping people see God's true nature in spite of what evangelicals teach or indeed what many bible translations seem to indicate.
You asked about the lake of fire, and I'll tell you one thing - even though it's a popular English phrase the term translated "for ever and ever" (aiwnav aiwnwn) can not possibly be correct because two 'eternities' is a logical impossibility.
Here is a great set of youtube vids which talks about some of the basic terms and history involved. You can also study these in any Greek or Hebrew concordance.
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Better to be outright annihilated, than to be tortured, that's for certain.
So, what possible difference could it make, to the rest of us, if salvation happens one second before death, or if it happens after death? I think there's just a lot of folks who don't like the idea of sharing Heaven with someone who racked up BIG sins, as opposed to their own,
) but it is amazing that there is really no 'eternal afterlife torment' taught in the OT (see my references earlier in this thread - there are many more as well). The word 'hell' by our traditional English understanding absolutely did not belong anywhere in the old testament, as it always refers to Sheol AKA "The grave" and it is repeatedly stated that all go to that one place upon death and there is no thought, memory or action in Sheol.
