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Originally Posted by bluepacific Well, I believe that people will only be saved on account of the fruits of their labour and you can only tally up these fruits of labour after your life has ended.
Whether you are a Christian or not is irrelevant since Jesus himself never was a Christian either.
If someone acts like Jesus, thinks like Jesus and is as compassionate as Jesus who cared for all (and not just Christians), whatever your religion or philosophy is becomes irrelevant in my eyes.
Being a follower of Jesus is a state of mind, not some exclusive club where you can only get in unless you pass some unclear initiation or contribute huge sums of money.
Nope, I'm a simple follower of Jesus.
Just not the Christian kind because I more resemble an independent (atheist) free thinker than a regular Christian.
Like I said.. I'm not a "true" Christian.. like everyone else.
No one can be a true Christian when it comes to doing good works, and it is not works that save you, Yet if you support the pratice of murder, then according to Jesus Christ, you are not a Christian at all. There will be many people in heaven who have not lived the best of lives, yet there will be no one in heaven, that continually supported murder. Because such people, are not like everyone else.
And yet, God gives us free will. Why should I think I can impose rules on people when He has given them CHOICE...all kinds of choices, not only related to childbearing. Granted, choices come with consequences, but He gives us choices anyway.
As Christians we are not required to make others obey or live to Christian standards. Our first duty is to be obedient ourselves and then to witness to others. Witness, not force by laws or rules that are based on our interpretation of scripture, even if we are interpreting correctly.
I'm sorry, but that whole "free will" argument doesn't wash with me. Why? Well let me ask you a question.....as a Christian, do you think people should have the right to commit suicide? Do you know what happens in some places if you DO try to kill yourself unsuccessfully? You're first locked into the psych ward at a hospital and subjected to psychiatric evaluations, and then later you have to appear in front of a judge who determines whether you should be further locked away in a mental institution, or simply ordered to undergo regular therapy. So essentially, the government does NOT allow you to have the free will to decide to take your own life.
Why do you think there is such a brouhaha over euthanasia -physician/medically assisted suicide? Why did Dr. Kevorkian go to prison for helping people kill themselves? Whether the patients were terminally ill or not, it was deemed to be second-degree murder. So do you really think a woman should have the right to choose to decide whether or not to kill her unborn baby???? That's nuts. What if the father wants the baby aborted against the mother's wishes? Should his wish be granted? Oh wait - it's HER body. Yeah, riiiight. Seems then the argument falls apart.
So essentially, the government does NOT allow you to have the free will to decide to take your own life.
The government cannot rob people of their free will.
Granted they can rob people of their freedom and all other kinds of luxury.
The government can only beat people into submission if you allow that to happen. BTW I'd rather die than live like a broken & neutered dog.
forgive them father they know not what they do.
you dont frown at an anaconda you back away from it very fast.
living together is a bad choice. but when guys ran away from the asset download program called divorce --women were willilng to negotiate. marriage is in a sorry state. 56% failure, (75% of divorces filed by women), 50% adultery (25% by women), this means 22% are actually committed married and a lot of em that are in the 22% are not happy. its not because people are not religious enough. they never were that strong in the first place. the law changed, no fault divorce and the 1974 federal anti discrimination credit act (the right to create debt against another human being without their consent)-- they changed marriage forever.
divorce got easy and profitable. adultery is now a freebie. we are human we will serve our own interests.
I'm sorry, but that whole "free will" argument doesn't wash with me. Why? Well let me ask you a question.....as a Christian, do you think people should have the right to commit suicide? Do you know what happens in some places if you DO try to kill yourself unsuccessfully? You're first locked into the psych ward at a hospital and subjected to psychiatric evaluations, and then later you have to appear in front of a judge who determines whether you should be further locked away in a mental institution, or simply ordered to undergo regular therapy. So essentially, the government does NOT allow you to have the free will to decide to take your own life.
Why do you think there is such a brouhaha over euthanasia -physician/medically assisted suicide? Why did Dr. Kevorkian go to prison for helping people kill themselves? Whether the patients were terminally ill or not, it was deemed to be second-degree murder. So do you really think a woman should have the right to choose to decide whether or not to kill her unborn baby???? That's nuts. What if the father wants the baby aborted against the mother's wishes? Should his wish be granted? Oh wait - it's HER body. Yeah, riiiight. Seems then the argument falls apart.
Your post has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that God has given us choice, not government. I also made sure to say that choices come with consequences, both here and after our bodies are dead.
From the first moments of creation God has given us choice between good and evil, laws don't change that. God didn't stop Eve from eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. He didn't stop Cain from killing his brother or David from sleeping with Bathsheba. They all made a CHOICE. God doesn't stop people from doing evil now, whether it be abortion, suicide, gossiping, stealing or lying. It doesn't make any of those things right but why do you think men have more power to impose God's will than God himself will exert?
Do you really think that the whole "He who is without sin, cast the first stone" only applies to that one woman in that one moment in time? Or, "Remove the plank from your own eye before trying to help a brother with the speck in his eye." Gee, that sounds an awful lot like your first priority should be with your own choices rather than trying to fix everyone else in God's image. I don't know of one verse where God instructs us to make others obey by force or any other means, especially those who are not professing Christians. Sinners sin....no big surprises there!!! We are to witness and let them choose just as we have chosen.
It is in the choosing to follow Him that He is glorified....it would mean little otherwise.
Even so, I am not saying I am in favor of abortion. I am saying that choice is God given. The choice to do good or evil. I can't make that choice for others, and even if we did by means of laws it would be meaningless. You aren't saved simply by doing good or not doing evil acts. You aren't saving anyone by removing their ability to choose (the context being much broader than abortion alone).
Nay, If you will reread the post that you responded to with the following:
Quote:
grace and mercy......
..there before the grace of God go I......
Unquote
You will see I said if he was doing those things willingly...apparently you did not see the willingly , or else you think it is okay to sin willingly ?????
hey you asked me to elaborate.......
I believe the book of Hebrews covers ones 'willinngness to sin'
Your post has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that God has given us choice, not government. I also made sure to say that choices come with consequences, both here and after our bodies are dead.
From the first moments of creation God has given us choice between good and evil, laws don't change that. God didn't stop Eve from eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. He didn't stop Cain from killing his brother or David from sleeping with Bathsheba. They all made a CHOICE. God doesn't stop people from doing evil now, whether it be abortion, suicide, gossiping, stealing or lying. It doesn't make any of those things right but why do you think men have more power to impose God's will than God himself will exert?
Do you really think that the whole "He who is without sin, cast the first stone" only applies to that one woman in that one moment in time? Or, "Remove the plank from your own eye before trying to help a brother with the speck in his eye." Gee, that sounds an awful lot like your first priority should be with your own choices rather than trying to fix everyone else in God's image. I don't know of one verse where God instructs us to make others obey by force or any other means, especially those who are not professing Christians. Sinners sin....no big surprises there!!! We are to witness and let them choose just as we have chosen.
It is in the choosing to follow Him that He is glorified....it would mean little otherwise.
Even so, I am not saying I am in favor of abortion. I am saying that choice is God given. The choice to do good or evil. I can't make that choice for others, and even if we did by means of laws it would be meaningless. You aren't saved simply by doing good or not doing evil acts. You aren't saving anyone by removing their ability to choose (the context being much broader than abortion alone).
God has also given us a choice to vote for a government that would protect the life of a child, or we could vote for a government that would allow the killing of that child. Anyone who votes for a government that will allow for the killing of a child is guilty of aiding in a murder. God tells us in Scripture, that no murders will enter the Kingdom of God. As Christians, we should do all that we can to stop anyone from making the choice to murder. All life is precious to God. When having the right to murder becomes more important than a childs right to live, then this is truly a sad day for our nation.
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Well, I believe that people will only be saved on account of the fruits of their labour and you can only tally up these fruits of labour after your life has ended.
If someone acts like Jesus, thinks like Jesus and is as compassionate as Jesus who cared for all (and not just Christians), whatever your religion or philosophy is becomes irrelevant in my eyes.
The government cannot rob people of their free will.
BTW I'd rather die than live like a broken & neutered dog.
