Who Has Got the Possibility of Entering Heaven? (creation, Matthew, baptism)
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The Bible is our only source for the answers to these things. The Catholic church does a lot of great things and I can agree that many within the Catholic church are going to heaven. This can be said of Protestant churches as well. Just because you go to church or even belong to a church doesn't make one a Christian.
How do you get to heaven? I particularly like what Greg Laurie has to say about this. He is a very straitforward pastor.
However the faithfull through the sacrament of the baptism is being born again en by the sacrament of confirmation receives the Holy Spirit, it is not said that he or she will not sin again.
The Bible teaches us that even the largest saints were exposed to the sin. Abraham, Isaak, Jacob, Moses, David, etc in the Old Testament. Peter, John, etcetera in the New Testament, they all comited sins, however they had or posessed the highest rank or degree of holiness. Thats why this sacrament of penance was being established so that the sinner kan return to god after he confessed his sin in front of an priest.
By the power in that which Our Lord Jesus Christs gave to his servants, for every sinner that really repents and has got Faith in him that he may forgive, he receives, the recaltrant sinner, or repentant sinner, on the saying of the priest, forgiveniss of sins if he come to confess it.
Because it is very important that everyone should examine oneself before he receives the holy communion, this sacrament of penance in general is practised or received before receiving holy communion (eucharist)
But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. 29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation [8] to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
1 Corinthians 11 (King James Version)
The establishment of the sacrament.
It is been established at three times promiss of the Lord himself:
1. When Our Lord Jesus Christ said to Peter after he declared that Jesus/He was the Son of the Living God: Matthew 16:19
Whatever you prohibit on earth will have been prohibited in heaven, and whatever you permit on earth will have been permitted in heaven."
2. When he promised all disciples:
Matthew 18:18
18"I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be[a]bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[b] loosed in heaven.
3. When he, them, after his resurrection, made clear their big challenge/task in the world:
John 20:21-23
21Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 23Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
What do you think Jesus meant with it? Yourself, what do you self think? And why?
Well, let just say I don't think he meant any of this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by West.
This is a question, and I Will Try to answer it, and I want to start a discussion about it with you guys and everyone.
First of all, I I will hurt anyone, I Ask the Almighty God to forgive my sins, and Everything is I Think...
I will now start and answering this question.
In Christianity, Anno 2008, there are about 204 christian denominations, who call themselves Churches or Christians, for example, the Roman Catholic Church.
In Christianity there are 8 Big Groups:
1. Anabaptism, for example Amish
2. Anglicanism, for example American Anglican Church
3. Assyrian, for example the Assyrian Church of the East,
4. Catholicism, for example the Roman Catholic Church
5. Eastern Orthodox, for example the Russian Orthodox Church
6. Oriental Orthodox, for example my church, the Syriac Catholic Church of Antioch
7. Protestantism, for example Reformed
8. Restorationism, for example Jehova´s Witnesses
Okay, these are the 8 Groups of Christianity, that Combine Christianity Altogether.
I belief, that every church, that has not 7 sacraments, in its belief, it is not the true church or church of God, and with that Church you cannot enter Heaven.
I think, and I think I am Right, that only the churches of Group 4 (Catholicism), Group 5 (Eastern Orthodox) and Group 6 (Oriental Orthodox) do have a proper use of the Seven Sacraments in their Church, with other sayings, I Mean, If a Church doesn´t have 7 sacraments, then with that church you cannot enter heaven, and I do belief so that only Catholic and Orthodox People (Group 4, 5, 6) can enter Heaven, based on the Seven Sacraments.
The One, who is in Group 1, 2, 3, 7, 8, are in great danger, I suppose, there are five points, which I think you can make it to heaven
1. First of all, You must be attached to a Church, who is belonging to the Catholicism, Eastern Orthodox or Oriental Orthodox, simply: you must be Catholic or Orthodox
2. Second you must have had the Sacrament of Baptism
3. Third of All you must have had the Sacrament of Confirmation
4. Fourd of All you must have had the Sacrament of Penance
5. Fifth of All you must have had the Sacrament of the Eucharist.
I want to explain to you, with Bible citations, why the Church, has got 7 sacraments, because Jesus Himself is the Establisher of the Sacraments of the Church, I belief.
Im looking forward to your replys, also tell me in which of the eight groups you are in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by West.
6. Oriental Orthodox, for example my church, the Syriac Catholic Church of Antioch
My church is the Syriac Orthodox Church of Antioch, and I do not mean the Syriac Catholic Church, that is another Church, belonging to Catholicism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by West.
Ok.
We will begin with the baptism.
Baptism is mainly based on this:
I think/Sorry
16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
Do you all believe this??
Quote:
Originally Posted by West.
And tomorrow I will fly to Switserland, there is a Wedding, my Cousin, i will return on sunday, i think i will post more when it is monday ok...this is the first about the baptism, what do you all think about this, do you believe this one? OR NOT? and why you do or why you don´t?
Think/Sorry
Quote:
Originally Posted by West.
I think and Sorry.
For Salvation, Again, there are five points important: So only four sacraments, and not all the seven.
I suppose, there are five points, which I think you can make it to heaven, I have said this one before, again i Say it, 4 sacraments are neccesary for salvation, not seven, but the church itself, must be/have 7 sacraments, that is point one/first of all:
1. First of all, You must be attached to a Church, who is belonging to the Catholicism, Eastern Orthodox or Oriental Orthodox, simply: you must be Catholic or Orthodox
2. Second you must have had the Sacrament of Baptism
3. Third of All you must have had the Sacrament of Confirmation
4. Fourd of All you must have had the Sacrament of Penance
5. Fifth of All you must have had the Sacrament of the Eucharist.
Quote:
Originally Posted by West.
List of churches which I believe you can make it to heaven, and maybe they are not all:
[SIZE=3]1. Catholicism (24):[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]1. Albanian Greek Catholic Church [/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]2. Armenian Catholic Church[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]3. Belarusian Greek Catholic Church[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]4. Bulgarian Greek Catholic Church[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]5. Byzantine Church of the Eparchy of Krizevci[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]6. Chaldean Catholic Church[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]7. Coptic Catholic Church[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]8. Ethiopian Catholic Church[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]9. Georgian Greek Catholics[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]10. Greek Byzantine Catholic Church[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]11. Hungarian Greek Catholic Church[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]12. Italo Greek Catholic Church[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]13. Macedonian Greek Catholic Church[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]14. Maronite Church[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]15. Melkite Greek Catholic Church[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]16. Roman Catholic Church[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]17. Romanian Church United with Rome Greek Catholic[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]18. Russian Byzantine Catholic Church[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]19. Ruthenian Catholic Church[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]20. Slovak Greek Catholic Church[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]21. Syriac Catholic Church[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]22. Syro Malabar Church[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]23. Syro Malankara Catholic Church[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]24. Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3][/SIZE] [SIZE=3]2. Eastern Orthodox (46):[/SIZE] [SIZE=3][/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]1. Albanian Orthodox Church[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]2. American Orthodox Church[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]3. Autonomous Ukrainian Orthodox Church in America[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]4. Belarusian Autocephalous Orthodox Church[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]5. Bulgarian Orthodox Church[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]6. Chinese Orthodox Church[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]7. Church of Greece[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]8. Church of the Genuine Orthodox Christians of Greece[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]9. Croatian Orthodox Church[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]10. Cypriot Orthodox Church[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]11. Czech and Slovak Orthodox Church[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]12. Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]13. Estonian Apostolic Orthodox Church [/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]14. Finnish Orthodox Church[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]15. Georgian Apostolic and Orthodox Church[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]16. Greek Orthodox Church of Alexandria[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]17. Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]18. Greek Orthodox Church of Jerusalem[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]19. Italian Orthodox Church[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]20. Japanese Orthodox Church[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]21. Karamanli Turkish Orthodox Church[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]22. Korean Orthodox Church[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]23. Latvian Orthodox Church[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]24. Living Church[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]25. Macedonian Orthodox Church[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]26. Moldovan Orthodox Church[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]27. Montenegrin Orthodox Church[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]28. Orthodox Church in America[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]29. Orthodox Church in Italy[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]30. Orthodox Church of Mount Sinai[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]31. Patriarchal Exarchate for Orthodox Parishes of Russian Tradition in Western Europe[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]32. Philippine Orthodox Church[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]33. Polish Orthodox Church[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]34. Romanian Orthodox Church[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]35. Russian Orthodox Church [/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]36. Russian Orthodox Church in America[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]37. Russian Orthodox Church outside Russia[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]38. Russian True Orthodox Church[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]39. Serbian Orthodox Church[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]40. The Old Calendar Bulgarian Orthodox Church[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]41. The Old Calendar Romanian Orthodox Church[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]42. Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]43. Ukrainian Orthodox Church[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]44. Ukrainian Orthodox Church Kiev Patriarchate[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]45. Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]46. Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA[/SIZE] [SIZE=3][/SIZE] [SIZE=3]3. Oriental Orthodox (10):[/SIZE] [SIZE=3][/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]1. Armenian Orthodox and Apostolic Church[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]2. British Orthodox Church[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]3. Celtic Orthodox Church[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]4. Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]5. Eritrean Orthodox Tewahedo Church[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]6. Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]7. French Coptic Orthodox Church[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]8. Malankara Jacobite Syriac Orthodox Church[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]9. Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]10. Syriac Orthodox Church of Antioch[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3][/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]I am the last one of this list, I am from the Syriac Orthodox Church of Antioch, an Oriental Orthodox Church.[/SIZE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by West.
I think and sorry for this days
Definition of the Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria, likewise an Oriental Orthodox Church, so the resemblence with my church is much I think, maybe it is even the same about the seven sacraments, because both churches belong to Oriental Orthodox Group of Christianity, it depends on what you define as Christians, for me, only Catholics and Orthodox are (true) Christians, the Rest is Not Christians, it is the party of the devil and his friends.
About the Baptism:
Definition:
The Baptism is the sacrament in what someone again be born en be come in to the Church, after been three times set under water in the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. This is the first of all sacraments, because it is seen as the door in which the faith(full) or faith one enters the Church and the Kingdom of Mercy as said by our Lord Jesus Christ Himself:
"I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.
John 3
that’s why faithfulls must have had this sacrament before they partake in one of the other sacraments.
[SIZE=3] [/SIZE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by West.
My Answer:
Not every person. If you are not of an Eastern Orthodox Church, or Oriental Orthodox church or from a church that belongs to the Catholicism Christian Group, then you can forget it. You cannot make it to heaven. I believe that there will after this life three sort of persons:
1. One that after they die immediatly go to Hell and will stay there forever
2. One that aftet they die immediatly go to Heaven/Paradise and will stay there foreever
3. One that after they die immediatly go to Hell, but, if People, sacrifice, pray for him on earth, they may get to Heaven, at the Last Judgement.
Point one and Point two are very clear I suppose, eithter Heaven or Hell. Point 3 is somewhat Clear, So, suppose, If you are from the Protestantism, but you have done good things in your life, but you didn´t get all the four sacraments, which are neccesary for heaven, but only 2, because I believe that all of the Protestantism has got 2 sacraments, maybe by the prayers, and sacrifices, of ofthers, you still go to heaven on the last day I don´t know that. So if you die, there is still forgiveniss of sins, why?
Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. Matthew 12:30-32
You see, that there is forgiveniss of sin in the age to come. But not all sins are to be forgiven.
This is my opinion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by West.
First of all, You must be a member of the
1. Eastern Orthodox
2. Oriental Orthodox
3. Catholicism.
If you are on of these, then there are four things neccesery for salvation, and that I have posted before:
1. First of all, You must be attached to a Church, who is belonging to the Catholicism, Eastern Orthodox or Oriental Orthodox, simply: you must be Catholic or Orthodox
2. Second you must have had the Sacrament of Baptism
3. Third of All you must have had the Sacrament of Confirmation
4. Fourd of All you must have had the Sacrament of Penance
5. Fifth of All you must have had the Sacrament of the Eucharist.
So know, you must fullfill the Sacraments if you have the right Church, and offcourse, love your neighbour, god, etc.etc. that which come along with the sacraments.
Quote:
Originally Posted by West.
Call for example an Roman Catholic Church Priest (Roman Catholics are part of a Good Church)
And have the Baptism, Confirmation, Penance, Eucharist, and know the meanings of all four of the sacraments, and take it with faith, hope and love. Than I think you will be saved.
Quote:
Originally Posted by West.
Every Church that has not got 7 sacraments, is not a good church, or have them but dont use them in a proper way (Anglicanism).
Based on this, I only believe churches belong to
1. Eastern Orthodox
2. Oriental Orthodox
3. Catholicism
have the seven sacraments or use them in a proper way if they have them, all the others, including:
Assyrians, Anabaptism, Protestantism, Restorationism, Anglicanism, are not (true) Christians!!!
So again, first of all you must have 7 sacraments in your church/the church must have 7 sacraments, what do you think about that, do you agree?
Quote:
Originally Posted by West.
Maybe on the last day he will go to heaven (Group 3), so he goes to hell, but maybe with prayers...of others on Heaven..God will send him on the last day to heaven...so no...he is not all together lost if he dies, he must have been either good or bad...if he was bad...then hell..if he was good (Have had the four sacraments in the right church) than heaven
Quote:
Originally Posted by West.
Listen SKBS, how many times do I have to tell this, I am saying that only four sacraments are neccasery for Salvation, Not Seven,
The Church itself must have had Seven, but for you are four sacraments neccesary, if you are of the Roman Catholic Church, I suppose you are, you have to fullfill 4 sacraments, not 7.
Why must a Church have had the 7 sacraments, because God commands us to do so, so dont ask why, if a church has 6 or less or 8 or more, than it is not doing what God told us to do so, that´s why they are a lyer, all churches with no 7 sacraments, or with 7 sacraments, but dont use them in a proper way like the Anglicanism, they say that only 2 sacraments are neccesary for salvation, Baptism and the Eucharist, but It is not true, Confirmation and Penance also.
Quote:
Originally Posted by West.
I have posted many things about Baptism.
Which of you which is Not Catholic or Orthodox (Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, Catholicism), believes that Baptism is/must be a Sacrament.
Again, I am from the Syriac Orthodox Church of Antioch, an Oriental Orthodox Church, so a Church which you can Make it to heaven. I have family living in Minneapolis, I myself live in the Netherlands/Europe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by West.
The Baptis, through the Disciples before the Death of the Messiah:
In the Bible it says: The Pharisees learn that Jesus is baptizing more people than John the Baptist, although it says that "...in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples." Jesus learns this, leaves Judea, and returns to Galilee (John 4:2)
But this Baptism was also to prepare the Jews for the coming of the Messiah. Saint John Chrysostom says that it is preciese the same like the baptism through John the Baptist
Making the Sacrament
Our Lord Jesus Christ himself established this sacrament, after he was Risen when he said: Matthew 28:
18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
The seenable signs
De seenable signs are: three times under the water and the words as said by the priests: I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit
There is Baptized with water for the folowwing reason:
1. Our Lord Jesus Christ was baptized in the water (Matthew 3)
2. Our Lord Jesus Christ say 3In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.[a]" (John 3)
3. The Apostles and the Early Church baptized with water: Then Peter said, 47"Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have."
and 38And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him. 39
4. The water is used since the very first beginning of the church
5. Water cleanses the body and the baptism cleanses the soul
Quote:
Originally Posted by West.
Definition
The Chrismation, which in the Coptic Orthodox Chuch is called the Sacrament of the Myron, is the Sacrament in which the faithful receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, the only one who can establish him in the new life, been giving to him by the baptism. Just like the sacrament of the baptism, this sacrament can never be repeated.
Establishment of the Sacrament.
It is Established on the base of varying promises that the Lord Jesus Christ had done about giving the Holy Spirit. See for this the Gospel of John, Chapters 7, 14, 15, 16 etcetera.
The moment of giving it.
Because the faithful through this sacrament is being established in the new life, been giving to him by the baptism, it has to be direct giving to it after the baptism. Some churches say that it must be delayed untill the children are more ripe for it. In reply to this must be have the following remarks sufficient:
1. The Holy Spirit descended immediatly after the baptism of our lord Jesus Christus on Him: Matthew 3:16
16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him.
2. The apostles had the normal thing this sacrament giving it to by giving it direct to the new baptist direct laying of the hands.
Acts 8:14-17
14When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them. 15When they arrived, they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into[c] the name of the Lord Jesus. 17Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
5On hearing this, they were baptized into[b] the name of the Lord Jesus. 6When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues[c] and prophesied. (Acts 19)
Vormsel: 23
Doopsel: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by West.
I believe that all Catholics and Orthodox (except for the Roman Catholic Church) do Baptism and Chrismation immediatly after each other.
Within the R.C.C. the Confirmation is giving at a age of around fourteen years old. Then the child/young adult also gets his first communion (eucharist/sacrament of the eucharist). I personally believe, although I believe, that the R.C.C. has a good faith, this is not Good, you should think about it, you baptize the child and at the age of 10 years old, it will die, without having the eucharist, and withouth having the chrismation, very sad...I am glad my church, syriac orthodox church of antioch, does baptism and chrismation, immediatly after each other.
Let´s suppose you also believe Chrismation be a Sacrament. We will then now turn over to the third of the seven sacrametns: The sacrament of Penance.
I think he meant exactly what He said. And He didn't mention any church or any 'sacrament'. If you want to lead folks to Heaven, lead them to Jesus.
Does anyone realize how frustrating it is for me to read all this as a Catholic? I want to crawl into the computer erase all of these crazy posts that only Catholics and Orthodox based religions will find thier way to heaven... it is crazy talk...I don't even know what to say... I am that annoyed....insanity...it is just insanity...please do not listen to crazy talk...
Does anyone realize how frustrating it is for me to read all this as a Catholic? I want to crawl into the computer erase all of these crazy posts that only Catholics and Orthodox based religions will find thier way to heaven... it is crazy talk...I don't even know what to say... I am that annoyed....insanity...it is just insanity...please do not listen to crazy talk...
LOL skbs, we've all had our special challenges from time to time here on the boards.
Why don't you tell us what the Catholic church's view is on who enters heaven?
I'm sure there will be some catholics here to confirm and support you!
"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church (THE CATHOLIC CHURCH), but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation."
Thus, some tribe in the middle of the Amazon who has never heard of Christ may be saved by God's grace because such people "try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience."
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