Who Has Got the Possibility of Entering Heaven? (crucified, testimonies, dogmas)

[skbs]

Originally Posted by aquila

Let's try this again....

You're the one that mentioned the Eucharist and religious education in post #110. For non-Catholic adults, the religious education is RCIA classes.

You likewise mentioned in post #118 that it's crazy talk and insanity for Catholics and Orthodox to think they are the only ones who will make it to Heaven, but in fact at one time that IS what both churches believed. Even today the traditionalist Catholics do NOT believe non-Catholics will go to Heaven unless they become Catholic. And some non-ecumenical Orthodox think both the Catholics and Protestants are heretics, and therefore cannot be saved outside the Orthodox Church.

Plus, the Cathechism states "through no fault of their own". Does that not imply that if you know of the Catholic Church and do not accept it, that you cannot be saved? I may be wrong on that one, but I read somewhere (I'd have to dig and dig to locate the link) that the Catholic church believes (or maybe USED to believe) that if you are aware of the Catholic teachings, but don't accept them, you cannot be saved.

This was all in regards to Neils confusion... and the fact that he kept talking about the Catholic Church in ways I did not agree with... I was clearing things up...in hopes he would stop.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Catholics-955/HEAVEN-1.htm
This is the new theory on what the Church Believes... the old theory is that you had to be Catholic... not that way anymore...
http://www.catholicplanet.com/RCC/wh...-to-heaven.htm

[aquila]

Originally Posted by firstborn888

Jesus founded a church without walls, without ethnic or religious boundaries and without hate or oppression. He spoke of no system of hierarchy. He set no follower above another, but contrarily said "the greatest among you will be a servant".

Are you saying there is not supposed to be any church structure or system of authority at all?

[freedom]

Originally Posted by aquila

Are you saying there is not supposed to be any church structure or system of authority at all?

Which one follows the teachings of Christ, and teaches to live them?

godspeed,

freedom

[aquila]

How does that answer my question?

[firstborn888]

Originally Posted by Deb in VA

firstborn, was Jesus beaten and tortured and hung on a cross to die?

Actually, to conquer death and abolish the old religious system.

Originally Posted by aquila

Are you saying there is not supposed to be any church structure or system of authority at all?

Exactly. In nature (animal kingdom) there is a pecking order. In society (post garden) it's the same way. It was after the fall when God said to Eve "He (the man) will rule over you".

It is natural (carnal) to want authority and be/have rulers. It is supernatural (spiritual) to lay our lives down and become servants. That's why the world is still such a mess. Everything is built upon fear - especially in the 'church'. How quickly did Jesus come and abolish religion only to have man raise up a new cult of oppression to take it's place?

Mopping up the blood of heretics from the church floor? Are you kidding me? Is this what Jesus died to bring us? The religion of Christianity? Certainly not.

As always, the kingdom arises from the lowly and meek and from the places you least expect.

Wherever someone prefers their neighbor above themselves - there is the church. Wherever oppression is broken - that's holy ground. Wherever someone lays their life down for a friend, there we see the power of the kingdom.

Trust, purity and working no-ill to one's neighbor is the end all of rebirth. Then we have arrived in God's presence. Then we are in heaven. Then there is 'proof' of God's kingdom.

[Neil Turan]

The Anointing of the Sick is mainly based on this:

14Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. James 5:14,15.

[aquila]

Originally Posted by firstborn888

Actually, to conquer death and abolish the old religious system.


Exactly. In nature (animal kingdom) there is a pecking order. In society (post garden) it's the same way. It was after the fall when God said to Eve "He (the man) will rule over you".

It is natural (carnal) to want authority and be/have rulers. It is supernatural (spiritual) to lay our lives down and become servants. That's why the world is still such a mess. Everything is built upon fear - especially in the 'church'. How quickly did Jesus come and abolish religion only to have man raise up a new cult of oppression to take it's place?

Mopping up the blood of heretics from the church floor? Are you kidding me? Is this what Jesus died to bring us? The religion of Christianity? Certainly not.

As always, the kingdom arises from the lowly and meek and from the places you least expect.

Wherever someone prefers their neighbor above themselves - there is the church. Wherever oppression is broken - that's holy ground. Wherever someone lays their life down for a friend, there we see the power of the kingdom.

Trust, purity and working no-ill to one's neighbor is the end all of rebirth. Then we have arrived in God's presence. Then we are in heaven. Then there is 'proof' of God's kingdom.

Why do you believe in Jesus? And which of His words do you abide by? Do you reject the NT teachings of Paul?

[firstborn888]

Originally Posted by aquila

Why do you believe in Jesus? And which of His words do you abide by? Do you reject the NT teachings of Paul?

I know Jesus personally, that's why I believe - because He has chosen me (among many) to know Him in this present age. I know what I'm saying is radical but the truth must be faced sooner or later.

It's not that I reject Paul's epistles but I do reject the forming of a static religion from the letters he wrote.

[aquila]

Originally Posted by firstborn888

I know Jesus personally, that's why I believe - because He has chosen me (among many) to know Him in this present age.

ALL true believers know Jesus personally. You make it sound as if He has physically appeared to you and communicated with you directly in person.

Originally Posted by firstborn888

It's not that I reject Paul's epistles but I do reject the forming of a static religion from the letters he wrote.

The Bible clearly speaks of different levels of authority and leaders in the church, such as Paul's words regarding bishops and elders. No doubt you're familiar with various Scriptures I could cite, so I'm not going to list them. If you don't reject Paul's words, how do you reconcile such passages with what you believe?

Jesus Himself gave the keys of the Kingdom to Peter (and Protestants might say the other apostles as well) along with the authority to bind and loose. Does that not convey a level of authority that other believers did not have?

[firstborn888]

Originally Posted by aquila

ALL true believers know Jesus personally. You make it sound as if He has physically appeared to you and communicated with you directly in person.

No, I know him the same as all true believers but I did hear His voice in person (twice). I met him alone in my room (when I was an atheist) so I had zero religious baggage

Originally Posted by aquila

The Bible clearly speaks of different levels of authority and leaders in the church, such as Paul's words regarding bishops and elders. No doubt you're familiar with various Scriptures I could cite, so I'm not going to list them. If you don't reject Paul's words, how do you reconcile such passages with what you believe?

Jesus Himself gave the keys of the Kingdom to Peter (and Protestants might say the other apostles as well) along with the authority to bind and loose. Does that not convey a level of authority that other believers did not have?

Yes, I am aware of all the passages having been in Christian ministry for 30+ years and most of that full time (I recently got out). Many protestants believe that Jesus gives every believer the authority of which you speak. I'm sure you are also aware that most protestants believe the RCC is apostate (or worse) and worships idols etc. and so we don't even need to go there.

I believe some truly know the real Jesus in spite of religion (not because of it) so I don't judge by religion - only by fruit. That which is born of flesh is flesh and that which is born of spirit is spirit. We can look at Genesis 3 and Ecclesiastes 12:7 and see where dust goes and where spirit goes. Jesus came to bring us back into harmony with our creator - not to give us ticket to a magic fairytale land through a bunch of creeds and rituals. Streets of Gold = "the ways of God"

John 16:25 "These things I have spoken to you in figurative language; but the time is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figurative language, but I will tell you plainly about the Father. 26In that day you will ask in My name, and I do not say to you that I shall pray the Father for you; 27for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came forth from God. 28I came forth from the Father and have come into the world. Again, I leave the world and go to the Father."

This was not spoken just for 'special' people and apostles etc. It's man and religious tradition that wants to exalt these people (whether Peter or Paul or Mary Magdalene) to sainthood status when they were obviously just regular people as you and I.

I believe the OP shows exactly how opposed religious systems are to what Jesus actually taught.