Who Has Got the Possibility of Entering Heaven? (Jehovah, Mormons, after life)

[aquila]

Originally Posted by firstborn888

No, I know him the same as all true believers but I did hear His voice in person (twice). I met him alone in my room (when I was an atheist) so I had zero religious baggage

I'd be interested in hearing about that sometime.

Originally Posted by firstborn888

Yes, I am aware of all the passages having been in Christian ministry for 30+ years and most of that full time (I recently got out). Many protestants believe that Jesus gives every believer the authority of which you speak. I'm sure you are also aware that most protestants believe the RCC is apostate (or worse) and worships idols etc. and so we don't even need to go there.

Well, I'm not really trying to start a debate anyway. I don't classify myself as Protestant, but also I still have some unresolved reservations about the Catholic/Orthodox beliefs too. I'm pretty much in a state of flux right now. I'm just curious about your previous statements regarding authority, and how you square those away with what the Bible clearly says.

Originally Posted by firstborn888

I believe some truly know the real Jesus in spite of religion (not because of it) so I don't judge by religion - only by fruit.

Precisely. I made a point of using the phrase "ALL true believers". But sometimes you might witness someone involved in something that isn't befitting a follower of Jesus, yet it turns out they actually ARE a believer and simply slipped up. So I likewise know that there are times when a true believer doesn't always exhibit the fruit of the Spirit. We're only human. I think one has to view their growth and the overall pattern of their life after a period of time before attempting to assess the quality of any fruit they may be producing.

Originally Posted by firstborn888

That which is born of flesh is flesh and that which is born of spirit is spirit. We can look at Genesis 3 and Ecclesiastes 12:7 and see where dust goes and where spirit goes. Jesus came to bring us back into harmony with our creator - not to give us ticket to a magic fairytale land through a bunch of creeds and rituals. Streets of Gold = "the ways of God"

What is your basis for declaring why Jesus came to earth? What do you base your interpretations upon? Jesus Himself referenced that in His Father's house there were many mansions, and that He was going to prepare a place for us. He likewise stated that it hasn't even entered the imagination of man the things that God has waiting for us. So what is "Heaven" to you? I know you touched upon this in another thread, but surely you acknowledge that our "post-bodily" existence is more than just an ethereal/intangible experience.

Originally Posted by firstborn888

John 16:25 "These things I have spoken to you in figurative language; but the time is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figurative language, but I will tell you plainly about the Father. 26In that day you will ask in My name, and I do not say to you that I shall pray the Father for you; 27for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came forth from God. 28I came forth from the Father and have come into the world. Again, I leave the world and go to the Father."

This was not spoken just for 'special' people and apostles etc. It's man and religious tradition that wants to exalt these people (whether Peter or Paul or Mary Magdalene) to sainthood status when they were obviously just regular people as you and I.

I understand that. I confess I have a problem with the Catholic/Orthodox veneration of saints and relics (the Orthodox even go to the extent of kissing icons). The very fact that Peter told Cornelius not to bow before him is to me an indication that the apostles thought no more highly of themselves than others. In fact, Paul references himself in quite humble terms. But nevertheless, there is still a system of authority that is presented in the Scriptures, and so once again I'm interested in knowing how you reconcile your beliefs with the words of Paul regarding the appointing of bishops and elders, etc....?

[firstborn888]

Originally Posted by aquila

I'd be interested in hearing about that sometime.

Testimonies
Mine is the 3rd one down the page entitled "Byron's story"

Originally Posted by aquila

Well, I'm not really trying to start a debate anyway. I don't classify myself as Protestant, but also I still have some unresolved reservations about the Catholic/Orthodox beliefs too. I'm pretty much in a state of flux right now. I'm just curious about your previous statements regarding authority, and how you square those away with what the Bible clearly says.

So which of the approx. 31,000 denominations is the authority? The only organization which could possibly denote a universal church structure would be the RCC, and many see the RCC as the biggest problem in Christianity.

Originally Posted by aquila

Precisely. I made a point of using the phrase "ALL true believers". But sometimes you might witness someone involved in something that isn't befitting a follower of Jesus, yet it turns out they actually ARE a believer and simply slipped up. So I likewise know that there are times when a true believer doesn't always exhibit the fruit of the Spirit. We're only human. I think one has to view their growth and the overall pattern of their life after a period of time before attempting to assess the quality of any fruit they may be producing.

I love your use of the blue - it's like "true blue" believers What I meant by 'fruit' is the fruit of the Spirit which flourishes outside the confines of Christianity showing us that Jesus is not confined to a particular creed.

Originally Posted by aquila

What is your basis for declaring why Jesus came to earth? What do you base your interpretations upon? Jesus Himself referenced that in His Father's house there were many mansions, and that He was going to prepare a place for us. He likewise stated that it hasn't even entered the imagination of man the things that God has waiting for us. So what is "Heaven" to you? I know you touched upon this in another thread, but surely you acknowledge that our "post-bodily" existence is more than just an ethereal/intangible experience.

But the prize is God himself and we have that now. Many view heaven as a literal city or whatever but the kingdom of heaven comes 'not with observation'. We have already passed from death unto life.
John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

No doubt awesome things await but my point is that the bible has become to many a 'guidebook on how to avoid eternal damnation' and a 'how to get a free ticket to planet heaven' manual. Heaven comes to earth through Christ and 'the meek shall inherit the earth'.

Originally Posted by aquila

I understand that. I confess I have a problem with the Catholic/Orthodox veneration of saints and relics (the Orthodox even go to the extent of kissing icons). The very fact that Peter told Cornelius not to bow before him is to me an indication that the apostles thought no more highly of themselves than others. In fact, Paul references himself in quite humble terms. But nevertheless, there is still a system of authority that is presented in the Scriptures, and so once again I'm interested in knowing how you reconcile your beliefs with the words of Paul regarding the appointing of bishops and elders, etc....?

Every denomination has it's own system of authority and it's the biggest mess ever devised by man (IMO). There are benefits to the sense of community in an organization so that's fine BUT to claim that all these Pastors are God's ordained authority is really a stretch. In many non-denominational independent churches the Pastors are accountable to no one. Denominationalism has been a cruel divider of believers for centuries, but when a culture exists where if you don't get everything just right (see the OP) you are staring at an eternal pit of torturous fire then division is an absolute necessity.

[aquila]

Originally Posted by firstborn888

Testimonies
Mine is the 3rd one down the page entitled "Byron's story"

Thanks for sharing. I'll be sure to read that very soon.

Originally Posted by firstborn888

So which of the approx. 31,000 denominations is the authority? The only organization which could possibly denote a universal church structure would be the RCC, and many see the RCC as the biggest problem in Christianity.

Either/or, it doesn't invalidate what Paul said with respect to a system of authority in the church.

Yes, there are so many Protestant churches that it's difficult to conceive of a possibility for any particular one to be more "right" than another. And while I believe there is certainly a vastly greater sense of cohesiveness in the structure of the RCC, the complex nature and intricate depths of its dogmas and rules/regulations make it pretty difficult to simply have a free personal relationship with Jesus Himself. I'm much more likely to look at the RCC and throw my hands up saying "I just don't get it" - and in fact, I do at times. I often think it's too lofty and "over my head", as if I'll never measure up to the ideals of the saints.

Originally Posted by firstborn888

I love your use of the blue - it's like "true blue" believers What I meant by 'fruit' is the fruit of the Spirit which flourishes outside the confines of Christianity showing us that Jesus is not confined to a particular creed.

So you don't believe the Christian faith can truly be defined...? How do you determine what is genuine fruit of the Spirit unless you have a definition of what constitutes genuine fruit? To be classified as a follower of Jesus, surely you recognize that there are certain characteristics which identify one as a believer, and beliefs to which he adheres, in order for his confession to be true. (?) Are those arbitrary?

Even if unformulated, I find it hard to believe you don't accept some form of a creed. A creed is nothing more than a compilation of universally accepted beliefs that guide members of a particular group, inasmuch as their confession of those beliefs is sincere. If, as you would seem to indicate, you don't believe in being confined by a creed, doesn't that mean you basically determine for yourself what is true and false? If so, upon whose authority do you base your beliefs and interpretations of Scripture? If you say "the Holy Spirit", how do you know it's the Holy Spirit? And if the Spirit is telling you one thing, but something different to someone else, who is right?

Perhaps I'm missing what you are trying to say.

Originally Posted by firstborn888

But the prize is God himself and we have that now. Many view heaven as a literal city or whatever but the kingdom of heaven comes 'not with observation'. We have already passed from death unto life.
John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Again, I'll ask.....what do you believe lies beyond our bodily death? What do you think our experience of "existence" will be like for us? Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to say Heaven is a "city". But surely it is "something" tangible, and more than just a cloudy ethereal state of "awareness". God didn't create us as such, so why would our ultimate destiny be such a state?

Originally Posted by firstborn888

No doubt awesome things await but my point is that the bible has become to many a 'guidebook on how to avoid eternal damnation' and a 'how to get a free ticket to planet heaven' manual. Heaven comes to earth through Christ and 'the meek shall inherit the earth'.

But what other guide do they have upon which they can truly rely? Let me give you an example of what I'm trying to say: The Bible contains inspired truth as revealed to us by God. Without that "guide", which tells us that things such as fornication and homosexuality are wrong, what should be a believer's position if they truly believe those things are NOT wrong? Do they rely on their own understanding of truth (living in accordance with what they believe within themselves to be true) - or do they instead adjust their beliefs to conform to what has been revealed to us by God?

Originally Posted by firstborn888

Every denomination has it's own system of authority and it's the biggest mess ever devised by man (IMO). There are benefits to the sense of community in an organization so that's fine BUT to claim that all these Pastors are God's ordained authority is really a stretch. In many non-denominational independent churches the Pastors are accountable to no one. Denominationalism has been a cruel divider of believers for centuries, but when a culture exists where if you don't get everything just right (see the OP) you are staring at an eternal pit of torturous fire then division is an absolute necessity.

What I'm asking has nothing to do with denominationalism. You said previously that you don't reject Paul's epistles. So yet again, I will ask....How do you reconcile what you believe with what the Bible clearly teaches regarding a system of authority in the church? Or do you simply think all those Scriptural mandates have been completely misinterpreted, or even falsified...?

[firstborn888]

Originally Posted by aquila

Either/or, it doesn't invalidate what Paul said with respect to a system of authority in the church.

Let me ask you then, who does Paul say is in chief authority in the church? What is the exact structure?

Originally Posted by aquila

So you don't believe the Christian faith can truly be defined...? How do you determine what is genuine fruit of the Spirit unless you have a definition of what constitutes genuine fruit?

"Love the Lord your God with all your heart all your soul and all your strength and love your neighbor as yourself"

Originally Posted by aquila

Even if unformulated, I find it hard to believe you don't accept some form of a creed. A creed is nothing more than a compilation of universally accepted beliefs that guide members of a particular group, inasmuch as their confession of those beliefs is sincere. If, as you would seem to indicate, you don't believe in being confined by a creed, doesn't that mean you basically determine for yourself what is true and false?

I'll observe again that in Christianity there are many different interpretations (sometimes thousands) for every scripture. And then they turn around and quote "no scripture is of private interpretation"
"Love works no ill to it's neighbor" is all I need to know about what is from God. Anyone with a conscience knows exactly what that means.

Originally Posted by aquila

If so, upon whose authority do you base your beliefs and interpretations of Scripture? If you say "the Holy Spirit", how do you know it's the Holy Spirit? And if the Spirit is telling you one thing, but something different to someone else, who is right?

Perhaps I'm missing what you are trying to say.

Every person must be convinced in their own heart what God's will is for them by the Holy Spirit. Without that there is nothing. That's God's job to reveal - not our job. We can share what we know (that's the authority to 'build up') but God Himself gives the increase.

Originally Posted by aquila

Again, I'll ask.....what do you believe lies beyond our bodily death? What do you think our experience of "existence" will be like for us?

Anyone who is a true believer has tasted of the power of the world to come. It's so far beyond this physical plain that it defies description in many ways but we have tasted of that world (literally 'age').

Originally Posted by aquila

Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to say Heaven is a "city". But surely it is "something" tangible, and more than just a cloudy ethereal state of "awareness". God didn't create us as such, so why would our ultimate destiny be such a state?

The Spirit is more real and tangible than physical matter. It's who we are at the core so what we see now as abstracts will be closer to us and more 'natural' to us than the air we breathe.

Originally Posted by aquila

But what other guide do they have upon which they can truly rely? Let me give you an example of what I'm trying to say: The Bible contains inspired truth as revealed to us by God. Without that "guide", which tells us that things such as fornication and homosexuality are wrong, what should be a believer's position if they truly believe those things are NOT wrong? Do they rely on their own understanding of truth (living in accordance with what they believe within themselves to be true) - or do they instead adjust their beliefs to conform to what has been revealed to us by God?

The only thing which is helpful in our walk with God is the Spirit of truth. If you want to talk about sexuality well - if we look to the bible we see that David nor Solomon were ever reproved for having hundreds of wives AND concubines (not wives). Jesus says divorce and remarriage is adultery. Samson slept with prostitutes and retained God's blessing and power until he told his secret. So we have 100 commentators trying to explain why and how and what it really means.
Welcome to confusion if you want to base your life on the bible without the Spirit of truth. In the end SOMEONE HAS to consult with their conscience and the Holy Spirit to make a decision.

Originally Posted by aquila

What I'm asking has nothing to do with denominationalism. You said previously that you don't reject Paul's epistles. So yet again, I will ask....How do you reconcile what you believe with what the Bible clearly teaches regarding a system of authority in the church? Or do you simply think all those Scriptural mandates have been completely misinterpreted, or even falsified...?

If the biblical structure is so clear then why is there not one big happy church worldwide? I'd like to hear from you the clear way a church is to be set up. Pastor in charge? Can't find a scripture for that. I guess we need a group of apostles who are over all the churches to keep the pastors in line?

The proof is in the pudding. No one knows what to do, yet they all claim to do it biblically.
So do we just keep striving to get it 'right'? Or do we recognize that Jesus didn't come to propagate more religion, more creeds and more problems?

[little elmer]

You must spread some reputation around before giving it to firstborn888 again.

Oh well.

It seems that many aren't sure of their walk unless there is a clear definition of the regulations set forth, but where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. Not that the law isn't just, but that the just shall live by faith.

We are to live by Him! His life must come forth! This is not done by stressing out about what is this rule or that rule, who the head of this body is (think about that for a moment). Unless we are really content with reading about a great ruler, and what's inside His mansion(s) instead of actually accepting His bid that we come - as we are, our entire being - and trust Him to take our life and crucify it (!)... we are just going through the motions.

Dead people don't worry, fear, or stress out over doctrine. This just illustrates how much we're still in the flesh. We're trying to live a spiritual life while still operating in the natural. My "doctrine" is simply Jesus Christ, and Him crucified - and we are not greater than our Master. His life is the life we are to live by, not our own. He is the Author and the Finisher who leads us into all truth.

Simple.

[bebeklonia]

Originally Posted by Reformed Liberal

Man! I think I will join Islam, it is much easier than this.

Well, you don't join a religion just because it's easier rite? Just choose one that correlates with your heart.

[bebeklonia]

I'm from a reformed evangelical church

I believe that one's life is predestined, and good deeds only don't get you to heaven. It's by the ultimate grace (death of Christ) that we are all can go to heaven.

[aquila]

Okay. Whatever you say, Firstborn888. It's quite obvious I'm wrong about everything. God knows I know that's true, so I'm not sure why I bother to ask questions.

[Alpha8207]

Originally Posted by aquila

Okay. Whatever you say, Firstborn888. It's quite obvious I'm wrong about everything. God knows I know that's true, so I'm not sure why I bother to ask questions.

Don't take it personal aquila. You gotta get used to just using discernment on who to listen to.

Some folks ya just let roll like water on a ducks back.

[firstborn888]

Originally Posted by aquila

Okay. Whatever you say, Firstborn888. It's quite obvious I'm wrong about everything. God knows I know that's true, so I'm not sure why I bother to ask questions.

aquila,
I have enjoyed our conversation. It's not so much about being right or wrong as I just try to give a fresh perspective - that's all. God 'put' me in a local church for the first 9 years where I served as worship leader/music director and it was a wonderful thing. I spent the following 21 years in full time ministry and so I did not come to my conclusions overnight. To this day I wish I had the last 21 years to do over - not that anything really bad happened but now that I'm 'out' it's been really eye opening to look at the system from a distance.

In the end each individual must be convinced of God's will for themselves. In that way we can see the miracle of God speaking (many times in secret) and the universal body working together.

I do have a problem with people deifying a book and I think it works against the kingdom and is counter intuitive to kingdom living. I love the bible but many times people want a perfect literal guidebook to follow instead of cultivating a one on one with God.

May God bless you on your journey aquila. You've been more than kind and I hope I have not offended you in any way.