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I was just wondering how many moderate Christians are worried about the rise of fundamentalism in some quarters of the Christian faith ? All my Christian friends in the UK are horrified as what they see as a dangerous trend towards extremism in the US on social issues like abortion, the death penalty, women's rights, homosexuality, Islam , etc...
Some parts of the US have become a by-word for fundamentalism world-wide and I think many here in Europe are becoming almost as scared of bible-thumpers as they are of Qur'an thumpers. Literally. Satirists are having a field day as they did with some fundamentalist Muslims.
The choice of "veep" by Mc Cain has shocked most Europeans to the core , including Christians and I was wondering whether more moderate Christians are becoming aware of a rising wave of extreme Christianity in action.
Do any of you see this as threat not only to your faith but also to society in general ? Fundamentalism of any kind is in my opinion extremely dangerous whether religious or secular and I tend to associate fundamentalist Christians with "fruitcakes" like extreme Islamists or rabid communists, fascists whatever label can be applied to any extreme philosophy.
From an Atheist point of view I cannot think of anything more off-putting than an "in you face" Christian ( or Muslim/ .....whatever) and it completely turns people off even beginning to listen to what Christians have to say .
Moderate Christians become side-stepped as fundamentalists take over and the whole message gets lost . Non Christians start associating all Christianity with the very vocal minority and ultimately I cannot see how the actions of some can be anything but damaging to the Christian cause ?
For example extremist Islamists have high-jacked an entire religion for their nefarious process , engulfing their faith into controversy and creating fear, and hysteria simply because of the actions of a few.
Every single Muslim I have ever met regards fundamentalists are dangerous not only to our world order but ultimately to the well being of their faith and what they view as "true" Islam, an Islam which is far removed from news headlines. They fear and dislike Islamists probably even more than we do because they feel it calls into question their very existence and negates a Faith which does not resemble the one they see enacted by some of its so called "followers".
Will the same happen to Christianity ? When I visit this forum I see a Faith so divided and divisive it makes Atheists look like a homogeneous group. And that is saying something.
So many divisions and chasms in philosophy , so many extremes of thought and dogma.
Can Christianity survive all this growing extremism or will the faithful only end up shredding themselves to pieces on matters of dogma and beliefs ?
As an Atheist I always had a soft spot for Christians and yet the more I hear the more bemused and quite frankly horrified I become. Most of my friends are Christians and we discuss Faith a lot and most feel that Christ's message has been high-jacked by people whose sanity they question ( my words not them though I would have to agree).
If even moderate Christians feel their faith has become so polarised that they feel under threat I wonder what an increasing secular society will make of it all.
I am not trying to upset or flame anyone and am genuinely interested in how my fellow posters who would label themselves "moderate" feel about this issue.
I cannot help but feel that in a way Christianity is as a crossroad ( no pun intended) and that the way it is handled might just seal its future as a world faith.
I went to a lecture last year on the issue organised by a synod of English Churches and it made fairly grim listening. It seems that at least in Europe , many Christians are deeply concerned about where their faith is heading.
What is the definition of "Fundamentalism" and "moderate" Christians?
Is the belief that the bible is the recorded word of God 'fundamentalism'?
Are 'moderate' Christians those who pick and chose what they believe?
In the scriptures there are various discriptions of believers.... there are weak ones, false ones, strong ones, and others, but I do not find them discribed as 'fundamentalists' or 'moderate' .....
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To those of us who are non-Christians, there is a huge difference between "Christians" and "Fundamentalist Christians". When I practised Christianty I never took every word in the Bible as a literal voice from God...I tried but just too much of it made no sense at all. It isn't picking and choosing, it's allowing for education and possibilities, for using one's brain and applying the lessons of the Bible to our everyday lives. A Fundamentalist will read the Bible and say "The earth was created in six days and is only 6000 years old...period!" A non-Fundamentalist (moderate) will say, "God created the earth in His own time and in his own way and it does not matter if the earth is 6000 years old or six billion years old...the ultimate message is the same." It is the getting caught up in all that dogma and perception that causes so much problems among the world's religions and their followers.
I was just wondering how many moderate Christians are worried about the rise of fundamentalism in some quarters of the Christian faith ? All my Christian friends in the UK are horrified as what they see as a dangerous trend towards extremism in the US on social issues like abortion, the death penalty, women's rights, homosexuality, Islam , etc...
Some parts of the US have become a by-word for fundamentalism world-wide and I think many here in Europe are becoming almost as scared of bible-thumpers as they are of Qur'an thumpers. Literally. Satirists are having a field day as they did with some fundamentalist Muslims.
The choice of "veep" by Mc Cain has shocked most Europeans to the core , including Christians and I was wondering whether more moderate Christians are becoming aware of a rising wave of extreme Christianity in action.
Do any of you see this as threat not only to your faith but also to society in general ? Fundamentalism of any kind is in my opinion extremely dangerous whether religious or secular and I tend to associate fundamentalist Christians with "fruitcakes" like extreme Islamists or rabid communists, fascists whatever label can be applied to any extreme philosophy.
From an Atheist point of view I cannot think of anything more off-putting than an "in you face" Christian ( or Muslim/ .....whatever) and it completely turns people off even beginning to listen to what Christians have to say .
Moderate Christians become side-stepped as fundamentalists take over and the whole message gets lost . Non Christians start associating all Christianity with the very vocal minority and ultimately I cannot see how the actions of some can be anything but damaging to the Christian cause ?
For example extremist Islamists have high-jacked an entire religion for their nefarious process , engulfing their faith into controversy and creating fear, and hysteria simply because of the actions of a few.
Every single Muslim I have ever met regards fundamentalists are dangerous not only to our world order but ultimately to the well being of their faith and what they view as "true" Islam, an Islam which is far removed from news headlines. They fear and dislike Islamists probably even more than we do because they feel it calls into question their very existence and negates a Faith which does not resemble the one they see enacted by some of its so called "followers".
Will the same happen to Christianity ? When I visit this forum I see a Faith so divided and divisive it makes Atheists look like a homogeneous group. And that is saying something.
So many divisions and chasms in philosophy , so many extremes of thought and dogma.
Can Christianity survive all this growing extremism or will the faithful only end up shredding themselves to pieces on matters of dogma and beliefs ?
As an Atheist I always had a soft spot for Christians and yet the more I hear the more bemused and quite frankly horrified I become. Most of my friends are Christians and we discuss Faith a lot and most feel that Christ's message has been high-jacked by people whose sanity they question ( my words not them though I would have to agree).
If even moderate Christians feel their faith has become so polarised that they feel under threat I wonder what an increasing secular society will make of it all.
I am not trying to upset or flame anyone and am genuinely interested in how my fellow posters who would label themselves "moderate" feel about this issue.
I cannot help but feel that in a way Christianity is as a crossroad ( no pun intended) and that the way it is handled might just seal its future as a world faith.
I went to a lecture last year on the issue organised by a synod of English Churches and it made fairly grim listening. It seems that at least in Europe , many Christians are deeply concerned about where their faith is heading.
Moose,
I think this is a fascinating subject.
Before I go any further, I'd like to ask you a question.
You and I joined at roughly the same time, have roughly the same number of posts and reps, and have engaged each other more than a few times in debate and discussion here.
Would you define me (by my posts) as fundamental, liberal, conservative, moderate or something else?
I'm just curious.
Labels irk me but I'm willing to have this discussion.....
To those of us who are non-Christians, there is a huge difference between "Christians" and "Fundamentalist Christians". When I practised Christianty I never took every word in the Bible as a literal voice from God...I tried but just too much of it made no sense at all. It isn't picking and choosing, it's allowing for education and possibilities, for using one's brain and applying the lessons of the Bible to our everyday lives. A Fundamentalist will read the Bible and say "The earth was created in six days and is only 6000 years old...period!" A non-Fundamentalist (moderate) will say, "God created the earth in His own time and in his own way and it does not matter if the earth is 6000 years old or six billion years old...the ultimate message is the same." It is the getting caught up in all that dogma and perception that causes so much problems among the world's religions and their followers.
I completely agree! Fundamentalism in religion IS dangerous, and I fear it in the U.S. You generally can't argue with someone who subscribes to fundamentalist beliefs. And from my own experience, they're very much into the "with us or against us" mentality, which ultimately leads to war.
I don't care what you believe or where you worship, but fundamentalists don't seem to have a live and let live attitude. They feel they MUST convert enveryone who doesn't believe as they do, and feel like they need people of like beliefs in government to change laws and force their views on the rest of the population.
When I saw the video from Sarah Palin's church, I shuddered! To have someone with these beliefs, who thinks she was appointed governor of Alaska by God, and the way people in this church behave, is extremely troubling. They certainly have every right to worship as they see fit, and if they want to scream in tounges and writhe on the floor, good for them. But this is extremism and people who hold these beliefs (for instance, that God has said Alaska is a protected state during the Rapture!) have no business pushing it on the entire country and the world from the Oval Office! You want a holy war and more terrorism in this country? Put Sarah Palin in office!
I'm not sure if I can word this correctly, but you know how after 9/11 everyone went flag crazy? I think as Christians stood back and let a whole lot of issues they considered wrong due to their Biblical standards be disregarded or negotiated away, the answer to that was a turn back to a staunch fundamentalism. It's not so much a knee jerk reaction, any more than the flags were, but when people feel what they love and believe in is threatened, they can certainly get to a place where 'negotiation' is no longer an option.
I'm a conservative Christian, so I don't consider it a threat, but I do think this frame of thought can open to the door to walking in 'religion' instead of walking in 'love.
I am a fundalmentalist. I believe the word of God is perfect, the bible is inerrant and infallible not only in matters of faith and morals but also as a literal historical record, holding as essential to Christian faith belief in such doctrines as the creation of the world, the virgin birth, physical resurrection, atonement by the sacrificial death of Christ, and the Second Coming.
It is you moderates who have turned the bible upside down, making the world believe, all roads lead to God and that the bible has errors and contradictions.
Moderates make a mockery of God's word, no back bone whatsover. Moderates say, Jesus was only about love and that we should help the enviornment, feed the poor, tend to aids victims, which by the way we conservatives have always been doing.
Jesus came for ONLY ONE thing, seek and save the lost, go tell people about Jesus and the gospel. Moderates don't tell people about the gospel instead they try to bribe people to come to church by making the church "relevant" giving out free gas, free ipods etc.... what a joke!
It is you moderates who are the extremists. Your watered down gospel message. It is moderates who are becoming worldly mixing their yoke with a fallen, sinful world. It is moderates who are the reason that 50% of evangelicals don't believe in hell or the devil.
Last edited by Fundamentalist; 09-09-2008 at 10:34 AM..
Yes Moose it is a scary..Especially in government..McCain/Pulin are doing the very same thing that GWB did in his campaign..Played the "religious card" in order to appease the religious right who seem to be against everything except their own selfrighteousness, and political agenda..They are still trying to prove that Obama's religion is Islam, because of the hatred I see in this area and across the country for anything "Muslim"..When I think of separation of church and state, that is exactly what I do..SEPARATE
Not all fundamentalists are judgemental, argumentive and have a"holier than thou" attitude..It is just that their voices are loudest..Some of the fundamentalists here are very good friends and I hope will be for a long time..just as the Atheist, Catholic and Native American's, etc. are my friends..I have learned from each of them and respect what they beieve or don't believe, and do not try to "change" them..
I have no label about my beliefs and am not looking for a label to define me..My belief and relationship with God and my friends and strangers I meet defines me...
Yes Moose it is a scary..Especially in government..McCain/Pulin are doing the very same thing that GWB did in his campaign..Played the "religious card" in order to appease the religious right who seem to be against everything except their own selfrighteousness, and political agenda..They are still trying to prove that Obama's religion is Islam, because of the hatred I see in this area and across the country for anything "Muslim"..When I think of separation of church and state, that is exactly what I do..SEPARATE
Not all fundamentalists are judgemental, argumentive and have a"holier than thou" attitude..It is just that their voices are loudest..Some of the fundamentalists here are very good friends and I hope will be for a long time..just as the Atheist, Catholic and Native American's, etc. are my friends..I have learned from each of them and respect what they beieve or don't believe, and do not try to "change" them..
You should read a true history book, "separation of church and state, It is not in the constitution; is a lie perpetrated by the ACLU. It was an unofficial letter from Jefferson to a baptist minister, giving him permission to preach despite the anglican's resistance.
Separation of State means, Separation of church from interference from the State.
It is you moderates who have turned the bible upside down, making the world believe, all roads lead to God and that the bible has errors and contradictions.
Moderates make a mockery of God's word, no back bone whatsover. Moderates say, Jesus was only about love and that we should help the enviornment, feed the poor, tend to aids victims, which by the way we conservatives have always been doing.
Jesus came for ONLY ONE thing, seek and save the lost, go tell people about Jesus and the gospel. Moderates don't tell people about the gospel instead they try to bribe people to come to church by making the church "relevant" giving out free gas, free ipods etc.... what a joke!
It is you moderates who are the extremists. Your watered down gospel message. It is moderates who are becoming worldly mixing their yoke with a fallen, sinful world. It is moderates who are the reason that 50% of evangelicals don't believe in hell or the devil.
If I post my opinion with scripture to back it up, you are free to debate but not to throw rocks. I love my country as much as the next fellow, but I also believe God is sovereign and will give this country exactly what she needs. Those who hold to condemning others without knowing the God they defend are missing the voice of God in their own lives - He's working on you too! Don't you see that the things that irritate you are killing your flesh?
Love one another, love your enemies, let Me show you how dying to self will set you free of anger, disappointment, etc. The pure in heart will see God - today.
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Some of the fundamentalists here are very good friends and I hope will be for a long time..just as the Atheist, Catholic and Native American's, etc. are my friends..I have learned from each of them and respect what they beieve or don't believe, and do not try to "change" them..
