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Old 09-14-2008, 05:18 PM
 
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I have been reading some sites about Paul being a false apostle.

http://www.jesuswordsonly.com/freechapters.html (broken link)

Where does the division come from in Christianity? Does it come from the teachings of Paul? Are the New Testament christians followers of Paul? Jesus said that he did not come to abolish the law of Moses but to fulfil it and that the pharisees were teaching the doctrines of men, in place of/along side of the law of Moses.

Were the 12 apostles hand picked by Jesus and did they need to be eye witnesses of his baptism and resurrection? Does Pauls conversion seem to be similar to the experience of what a lot of Christians term false prophets - eg, Mohummad, Ellen White, Joseph Smith?

Are there any Messianic Jews here, what do you think about the teachings of Paul?
Quote:
14 Who is the Benjamite Wolf in
Prophecy?
Jesus’ Words on the Ravening Wolf
Jesus several times mentions a wolf or wolves. He
says the false prophets will be wolves dressed like sheep.
This means they will claim to be followers of Christ, but
“inwardly [they] are ravening wolves.” The full quote is:
Beware of false prophets, who come to you in
sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravening
wolves. (Matt. 7:15.)
Jesus warns true Christians that they are at risk from
these so-called Christians who are truly ravening wolves.
Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst
of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and
harmless as doves. (Matt. 10:16)
Christian leaders who do not care for the flock will
leave the average Christian at the mercy of these ravening
wolves. Jesus explains:
He that is a hireling, and not a shepherd,
whose own the sheep are not, beholdeth the
wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth,
and the wolf snatcheth them, and scattereth
them: (John 10:12)
He fleeth because he is a hireling, and careth
not for the sheep. (John 10:13)(ASV)
Who is the Benjamite Wolf in Prophecy?
Jesus’ Words Only 348
Is this imagery of the ravening wolf as the false
prophet ever spoken about elsewhere in Scripture? Yes, in
fact there is a prophecy in the book of Genesis that the tribe
of Benjamin would later produce just such a “ravening wolf.”
Genesis Prophecies of Messiah and His
Enemy from the Tribe of Benjamin
Paul tells us in Romans 11:1, “For I also am an Israelite,
of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.” Paul
repeats this in Philippians 3:5, saying he is “of the stock of
Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin.”1
Keeping this in mind, Genesis has a very interesting
Messianic prophecy. Modern Christians are sadly generally
unaware of this prophecy. It may be ignored because the
nearby passage about a Benjamite ravening wolf in the latter
days hits too close to home. It is better to ignore a clear Messianic
prophecy than to risk seeing the Bible prophesied the
emergence of Paul and the error he would propagate among
Christians.
In Genesis chapter 49, Jacob, also known as Israel,
utters a prophecy of the latter days. In this prophecy, Jacob
identifies the role of each son and his tribe. The passage
begins:
And Jacob called unto his sons, and said:
gather yourselves together, that I may tell you
that which shall befall you in the latter days.
(Gen 49:1)
1. We discussed elsewhere the Ebionite charge that Paul was not a true
Jew. Then could he still be a Benjamite? Yes, Paul could be a descendant
of a tribe without being a true Jew. For example, if one of Paul’s
grandparents were a Benjamite, then he can be of the tribe but not a
true Jew.
Jesus’ Words Only 349
Genesis Prophecies of Messiah and His Enemy from the Tribe of Benjamin
Then Jacob delivers a prophecy about his son Judah
and the tribe of Judah for the latter days. It is a clear Messianic
prophecy.
The sceptre shall not depart from Judah [i.e.,
the right to rule belongs to this tribe], Nor the
ruler’s staff from between his feet, Until Shiloh
come: And unto him shall the obedience of the
peoples be. (Gen 49:10)
Binding his foal unto the vine, And his ass’s
colt unto the choice vine; He hath washed his
garments in wine, And his vesture in the
blood of grapes. (Gen 49:11)
His eyes shall be red with wine, And his teeth
white with milk. (Gen 49:12) (ASV)
The root word for Shiloh comes from Shalom, meaning
peace. Shiloh means one who brings peace. Shiloh comes
holding the sceptre of Judah. Shilo thus is a prince of peace.
This passage therefore clearly depicts Messiah, the
Prince of Peace, with his garments bathed in the blood of
grapes. All obedience will be owed him. The Genesis-Shiloh
Messiah is then presented in similar imagery as the Lamb of
God in the Book of Revelation. (Rev. 19:13 “garment sprinkled
with blood”.)
Ancient Jewish scholars also read this Genesis passage
to be a Messianic prophecy. In all three Rabbinic Targums,
the Hebrew scholars taught Shiloh was the name for
Messiah. This was also repeated by many ancient Jewish
writers. (Gill, Gen. 49:10.)
So why is this Messianic passage so unfamiliar to
Christians? Perhaps because in close proximity we find
Jacob’s prophecy about the tribe of Benjamin. This Benjamite
prophecy follows many positive predictions for all the other
eleven tribes.

Of whom does the Benjamite prophecy speak? When
weighed carefully, there is very little chance that the Benjamite
prophecy could be about anyone but Paul. This prophecy
about Benjamin, if it was to be fulfilled and then verified,
must have been fulfilled in the time of Christ. At that time,
the tribes of Judah, Levi, and Benjamin still had survived.
The others were the lost tribes of the Diaspora. (Gill, commentary
on Gen. 49:10.) After the time of Christ, any distinguishable
tribe of Benjamin soon disappeared. Thus, the
prophecy about Benjamin is no longer capable of being fulfilled
and confirmed. Accordingly, one must consider the
possibility this verse is talking about Paul. In fact, the early
Christian church, as demonstrated below, did think this was a
prophecy about Paul. Somehow we lost memory of this
teaching.
Let’s turn now to Jacob’s last prophecy about the Benjamites
in the “latter days” when Shiloh comes. Here we read
of the imagery of a ravening wolf that identifies the tribe of
Benjamin.
Benjamin is a wolf that raveneth: In the morning
she shall devour the prey, And at even[ing]
he shall divide the spoil. (Gen 49:27) (ASV)
Let’s analyze this verse—for there is a time-sequence
to the ravening wolf’s activity. In the morning, he devours the
prey. This means he kills his prey. In the evening, he takes the
spoils left over after killing the prey. There are many metaphorical
similarities to Paul. He starts as a killer of Christians
or as one who approves the killing of Christians. (Acts 7:58;
8:1-3, 9:1.) However, later Paul claims a right of division
among his earlier prey—he exclusively will recruit Gentiles
as Christians while the twelve apostles supposedly would
exclusively recruit Jews. (Galatians 2:9.)2

Continues......................
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Old 09-14-2008, 06:27 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
I have been reading some sites about Paul being a false apostle.

JWO Free in PDF Downloads (http://www.jesuswordsonly.com/freechapters.html - broken link)

Where does the division come from in Christianity? Does it come from the teachings of Paul? Are the New Testament christians followers of Paul? Jesus said that he did not come to abolish the law of Moses but to fulfil it and that the pharisees were teaching the doctrines of men, in place of/along side of the law of Moses.

Were the 12 apostles hand picked by Jesus and did they need to be eye witnesses of his baptism and resurrection? Does Pauls conversion seem to be similar to the experience of what a lot of Christians term false prophets - eg, Mohummad, Ellen White, Joseph Smith?

Are there any Messianic Jews here, what do you think about the teachings of Paul?
Although there have been many discussions with the MJ's, Paul was by no means a "false apostle". Even the 11 originals Apostles recognized Paul as an authentic Preacher of the Gentiles. Because Gentiles don't "convert" to Judaism, doesn't make them less Christians. That Law of Moses was FOR them, TO Them, By God, in the COVENANT with Israel, the nation of the 12 tribes.

Peter even said that most people would confuse the letters of Paul, to there own destruction. This wasn't Paul's doing. This was the blindness of not following Christ in purity. The delusional influence as it is called, is given to those NOT seeking the Truth for His Glory, but THEIR OWN.

I personally have the deepest respect for authentic Messianic Jews, as they have a heritage that was shattered between two worlds, the carnal and the spiritual. 2 covenants, 1 Messiah. Some have a hard time between the two of them, and sometimes the lines of precepts of the old, get blurred with the new.

For Gentiles, it is a whole lot harder for them. The were not raised with the strict covenant teachings of Rabbis. Turning to Christ means a complete change of EVERYTHING we know. And I mean everything.
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Old 09-14-2008, 06:30 PM
 
Location: All around the world.....
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[b][quote][quote=meerkat2;5266853]I have been reading some sites about Paul being a false apostle.

JWO Free in PDF Downloads (http://www.jesuswordsonly.com/freechapters.html - broken link)

Where does the division come from in Christianity?


quote: yhwhshalomjr
Division comes from the devil
diablo
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Old 09-15-2008, 01:36 PM
 
3,576 posts, read 451,983 times
Reputation: 385
Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
Although there have been many discussions with the MJ's, Paul was by no means a "false apostle". Even the 11 originals Apostles recognized Paul as an authentic Preacher of the Gentiles. Because Gentiles don't "convert" to Judaism, doesn't make them less Christians. That Law of Moses was FOR them, TO Them, By God, in the COVENANT with Israel, the nation of the 12 tribes.

Peter even said that most people would confuse the letters of Paul, to there own destruction. This wasn't Paul's doing. This was the blindness of not following Christ in purity. The delusional influence as it is called, is given to those NOT seeking the Truth for His Glory, but THEIR OWN.

I personally have the deepest respect for authentic Messianic Jews, as they have a heritage that was shattered between two worlds, the carnal and the spiritual. 2 covenants, 1 Messiah. Some have a hard time between the two of them, and sometimes the lines of precepts of the old, get blurred with the new.

For Gentiles, it is a whole lot harder for them. The were not raised with the strict covenant teachings of Rabbis. Turning to Christ means a complete change of EVERYTHING we know. And I mean everything.
There were 12 apostles that Jesus hand picked for the job - there was also a repalcement chosen by the remaining apostles and Jesus before pentecost after Judas' defection - Matthias.

What is actually wrong with the "law of moses" - the 10 commandments?

Quote:
The 10 Commandments - God's Revelation in the Old Testament
The 10 Commandments are found in the Bible's Old Testament at Exodus, Chapter 20. They were given directly by God to the people of Israel at Mount Sinai after He had delivered them from slavery in Egypt:

"And God spoke all these words, saying: 'I am the LORD your God…

ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'

TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'

THREE: 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'

FOUR: 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.'

FIVE: 'Honor your father and your mother.'

SIX: 'You shall not murder.'

SEVEN: 'You shall not commit adultery.'

EIGHT: 'You shall not steal.'

NINE: 'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.'

TEN: 'You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.'

The 10 Commandments - Christ's Summation in the New Testament
About 1,400 years later, the 10 Commandments were summed up in the New Testament at Matthew 22, when Jesus was confronted by the religious "experts" of the day:

"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments" (Matthew 22:36-40).

A reflective reading of Christ's teaching reveals that the first four commandments given to the children of Israel are contained in the statement: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind." It continues that the last six commandments are enclosed in the statement: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
Gentiles do not have to convert to Judaism but we need to repent of sin - idolatry, murder, lies,etc then do the will of God - keep the 10 commandments. Jesus said that till heaven and earth pass away not one jot or title would pass from the law - he came to fulfil the law not abolish it.



When I was growing up in a Christian home the things that made sense to me were the 10 commandments and Jesus saying "do unto others as you would have them do to you". I could see hyprocacy in the church and things that were being taught were not adding up but I did not know why or how they were not adding up because of being "indoctrinated"

It seems there has been a replacement of these 10 commandments with a new set of commandments which are not as clearly stated and is causing enormous division one of which is keep Sunday holy, another be baptised. The "laws" of the new testament seem more divisive and onerous than the old actually.

Can you show me anywhere that it is clearly stated that Paul was an apostle by anyone other than Paul himself. In the bible we are told that everything is to be decided on at least two witnesses - never one.

When you say that when you turn to Christ everything has to change what sort of things do you need to change exactly? I thought that lying, stealing, murder, etc were the things that need to be repented of and then to continue not lying, stealing, murdering, etc.

Last edited by Meerkat2; 09-15-2008 at 02:45 PM..
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Old 09-15-2008, 02:03 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
There were 12 apostles that Jesus hand picked for the job - there was also a repalcement chosen by the remaining apostles and Jesus before pentecost after Judas' defection - Matthias.
But he was chosen for the job AFTER Jesus ministry, which was my point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
What is actually wrong with the "law of moses" - the 10 commandments?
There is nothing wrong with the 10 commandments. There is something wrong with trying to convert people to the 613 Levitical Laws, which ARE the LAWS OF MOSES. If there isn't, everyone who claims Christ should just convert to Judaism, which I would HIGHLY disagree with.



Quote:
Gentiles do not have to convert to Judaism but we need to repent of sin - idolatry, murder, lies,etc then do the will of God - keep the 10 commandments.
Agreed, until the perfection comes, and there isn't any temptation.


Quote:
Jesus said that till heaven and earth pass away not one jot or title would pass from the law - he came to fulfil the law not abolish it.
Fulfill in the Greek is to complete it. He did, as He was perfect. On the other hand, it can never be abolished, otherwise it makes what Christ did, meaningless to new believers. As long as there is a first covenant shadow, which can never pass away, there is ALWAYS the second He gave us. The minute the first is gone completely, then the second actually becomes the first, as knowledge of the first is gone and no longer remembered.



Quote:
When I was growing up in a Christian home the things that made sense to me were the 10 commandments and Jesus saying "do unto others as you would have them do to you". I could see hyprocacy in the church and things that were being taught were not adding up but I did not know why or how they were not adding up because of being "indoctrinated"
As was I. I saw it more so, having been to so many different denominations, and ALL it seemed were missing the Truth. Maybe they has pieces, but not the whole.

Quote:
It seems there has been a replacement of these 10 commandments with a new set of commandments which are not as clearly stated and is causing enormous division one of which is keep Sunday holy, another be baptised. The "laws" of the new testament seem more divisive and onerous than the old actually.
Well, the laws of many don't make it right with God. If a person is seeking God, then God will disclose to them His Law.

Quote:
Can you show me anywhere that it is clearly stated that Paul was an apostle by anyone other than Paul himself. In the bible we are told that everything is to be decided on at least two witnesses - never one.
Act chapter 9. Witnesses to the conversion of Saul, the Pharisee Roman:
Jesus the Risen King
Ananias
The entire city population of Jews at Damascus, who saw the conversion.
Barnabas
The Disciples of Jerusalem verse 26
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Old 09-15-2008, 07:16 PM
 
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HotinAZ

Acts 9:26 does not say anything about Paul being acknowledged as an APOSTLE. That has Paul saying that he was a persecutor then converted and was then a preacher, he pushed himself as a disciple then as apostle, Jesus never said Paul you are my apostle.

Also Acts 14:14 Says both Paul and Barnabas are apostles so is that now 14 apostles? I wonder if this has anything to do with Revelation 2:2 when Jesus says to the church in Ephesus and commends the Ephesians for trying those that say they are apostles and are not, but are liars? Acts was written by Luke who is a dear friend of Paul.


Acts 9:19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.
Act 9:20 ∂ And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.
Act 9:21 But all that heard [him] were amazed, and said; Is not this he that destroyed them which called on this name in Jerusalem, and came hither for that intent, that he might bring them bound unto the chief priests?
Act 9:22 But Saul increased the more in strength, and confounded the Jews which dwelt at Damascus, proving that this is very Christ.
Act 9:23 ∂ And after that many days were fulfilled, the Jews took counsel to kill him:
Act 9:24 But their laying await was known of Saul. And they watched the gates day and night to kill him.
Act 9:25 Then the disciples took him by night, and let [him] down by the wall in a basket.
Act 9:26 ∂ And when Saul was come to Jerusalem, he assayed to join himself to the disciples: but they were all afraid of him, and believed not that he was a disciple.
Act 9:27 But Barnabas took him, and brought [him] to the apostles, and declared unto them how he had seen the Lord in the way, and that he had spoken to him, and how he had preached boldly at Damascus in the name of Jesus.

Gal 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
Gal 1:17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia,
and returned again unto Damascus.
Gal 1:18 ∂ Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.
Gal 1:19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.
Gal 1:20 Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not.

Act 9:22 contradicts Gal 1:16-18

In Luke when Jesus is talking to the eleven remaining, Luke 24:44-49 It seems to say that they are to be witnesses to the things that they have seen and heard from Jesus regarding the fulfillment of prophecy.

In Revelation 21:14 It specifically states there are 12 apostles of the lamb.



http://www.wordwiz72.com/paul.html

Quote:
The Law of Moses
Jesus is described in the gospels as a Jewish rabbi who always upheld the Law of Moses. In his first public teaching, the Sermon on the Mount, he made it very clear in Matt. 5:18-19: "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." ("jot or tittle" in modern translations is "not one iota nor one dot".) Have heaven and earth passed away? Have ALL the prophecies, including those of the last days, been fulfilled? While Jesus ADDS TO the Law of Moses, he never detracts from it or undermines it.

Even some of the occasions when Jesus seems to add to the Law or teach in new and different ways, he goes to great lengths to show that it is based on the Law. For example, when this rabbi asked by a "lawyer" (one versed in the Law of Moses) what was the greatest commandment in the Law, Jesus turns the question back to him and asks what is in the Law, and from that extrapolates his great commandments to Love God (from Deut 6:5) and Love Neighbor as Self (from Lev. 19:18) which was clearly the centerpiece of his ministry and his doctrine of ACTIVE love and compassion for all.

Paul, on the other hand, wants to throw out the Law of Moses!

Romans 10:4: "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness for every one who believes."

Many try to reconcile this direct contradiction by saying that Jesus' death, atonement and resurrection "fulfilled" and thus "completed" the Law of Moses, bringing it to an end. But to fulfill a law or command is to comply with it fully. Jesus specifically stated in Matt 5:17 that he came to fulfill the Law of Moses, not destroy it. He came to ensure full compliance. And then he sets the time frame for that compliance, in the next verse (Matt 5:18 cited above): until ALL (this means everything!) has been fulfilled, and to make it even more unambiguous, he states that this will be until heaven and earth have passed away, that not one dot or iota in the Law will be affected.

Additionally, when Paul denounces the need for works/deeds of which Jesus and others spoke so much, in Romans 3:27-28 and Galatians 2:16, he also specifically mentions which works: that obedience to the Law is what is not required, contrary to Jesus' statements.
Jesus never gave another law
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Old 09-15-2008, 10:57 PM
 
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Well, you can choose what to believe and not to believe. Your arguments to say that Paul contradicts himself in his letters, which have been written and rewritten, translated, etc., seemingly have no weight to them. I choose to believe him. Otherwise, when the council of Jerusalem met to decide what the "lawful" requirements needed to be kept by the Gentiles, they would not have chosen the "Noahide Laws". Notice here that Paul and Barnabas are there also. You would think that if they are false in any way, the Holy Spirit working through the Apostles could spot this on the money. Some interesting facts about the Noahide Laws from wiki:

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia







The Seven Laws of Noah (Hebrew: שבע מצוות בני נח, Sheva mitzvot B'nei Noach), often referred to as the Noahide Laws, are a set of seven moral imperatives that, according to the Talmud, were given by God to Noah as a binding set of laws for ALL mankind.[1] According to Judaism any non-Jew who lives according to these laws is regarded as a Righteous Gentile and is assured of a place in the world to come (Olam Haba), the Jewish concept of heaven.[2] Adherents are often called "B'nei Noah" (Children of Noah) or "Noahides" and may often network in Jewish synagogues.
The seven laws listed by the Talmud are[3]
  1. Prohibition of Idolatry: You shall not have any idols before God.
  2. Prohibition of Murder: You shall not murder. (Genesis 9:6)
  3. Prohibition of Theft: You shall not steal.
  4. Prohibition of Sexual Promiscuity: You shall not commit adultery.
  5. Prohibition of Blasphemy: You shall not blaspheme God's name.
  6. Dietary Law: Do not eat flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive. (Genesis 9:4)
  7. Requirement to have just Laws: You shall set up an effective judiciary to enforce the preceding six laws fairly.
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Old 06-12-2009, 10:22 AM
 
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SEE IT FOR UR SELF AT, [URL="http://www.godtruth.ca/"]www.godtruth.ca[/URL]
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Old 06-12-2009, 02:03 PM
 
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Note of clarification: Apostle and Disciple do not mean the same thing. Jesus picked 12 Disciples, one was added to their number after Judas killed himself.

A Disciple studies at the feet of a teacher. An Apostle is sent out to spread a message. There's a considerable difference there.

Re: Paul--check out 2 Peter for his thoughts on Paul. Also, the record of the Jerusalem Council in Acts.

Baptism was commanded by Jesus. I don't see why that would be such a debatable thing.
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Old 06-12-2009, 06:23 PM
 
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Paul was the best of them all.

Truth be told, his words are so much better to read that anyone of the other 11.

Thank God he sent us Paul!
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