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Old 03-31-2009, 01:50 PM
 
9,978 posts, read 8,294,419 times
Reputation: 3505
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
We do not fear my friend. We only follow scripture. If you want to condemn us then condemn us for that.
MysticPhD follow scripture from a source of love.

You follow it from a source of fear.

I do not condemn. I simply observe the stark difference.

As in every decision you make in life, you have free will to choose your path - fear or love.

 
Old 03-31-2009, 01:56 PM
 
Location: USA
1,861 posts, read 2,600,106 times
Reputation: 1755
Quote:
So if someone is defying God then it shows in their fruit.
That's true.

Quote:
They do not have true love because they have rejected the source of love.
You are not close enough to this man, to know whether he shows love to others, to be able to judge him.
Have you ever met him, do you know him? How do you know how he treats others?

Quote:
They do not have longsuffering because they are giving into the flesh instead of taking up their cross.
But then...you do not know, and you are not aware, of what he has already suffered, in stifling his own true
self, he has pretended to be something he is not, because he wants to live a Christian life. He has repeatedly
stifled his homosexual tendencies, because he wants to be a Christian. Over and over again, he stifled, apparently, who he really is, to be pleasing to the Lord....is that not longsuffering?

Quote:
They do not have goodness because they have chosen to sin.
You do not know whether he has goodness, unless you know him, personally. Apparently, he is wanting to be a Christian, and live for the Lord, so he is at least reaching for goodness, he is trying. He is wanting to do good, to me, that is goodness.

Whether he "close" to sin, it sounds like he has been choosing, NOT to sin, by being married for so long and
for living the "acceptable" life...and now, he is saying "I am gay." True, he is now choosing to "come out," and
identify himself for who and what he really is, but to me, that is not "choosing to sin." Yes according to the word,
sexual activity outside of marriage is wrong, it is sin. But many "straight" people have premarital sex --- are you
planning to straighten them out, too?
Quote:
They do not have meekness because they have set themselves above God.
Please show me where he set himself above God, actually, you, and others of your mindset, are the ones who
set ourselves above God, by setting yourselves up and judge and jury, when the Lord is the only one who knows
this man's heart.
Quote:
They do not have temperance because they have given into temptation rather than resisted.
Anyone who sins is giving into temptation. Are you saying you are sinless? If you ever commit a sin, then
you have no right to judge this man. That's why we are not called to judge others in this way, it can only be
done by the Lord.

You are not judging him correctly anyway, you are judging "the works of the flesh," instead of the "fruits of
the spirit," you've set yourself up as judge and not even doing the job properly.
Quote:
I own over 40 Bibles and not all are in the same place so they are not garunteed to find them all. As for taking them by force, I am no slouch when it comes to defending myself and I am a rather good shot with a gun.
Why would you need over 40 Bibles, do you feel you would be lost without one? I have 5 or 6.

Glad to hear you're no slouch in defending yourself, but that wasn't what I asked about..
 
Old 03-31-2009, 02:15 PM
 
9,978 posts, read 8,294,419 times
Reputation: 3505
That's a beautiful perspective, Sundance. It truly embraces the Biblical Jesus on every level.
 
Old 03-31-2009, 02:25 PM
 
Location: Pawnee Nation
7,125 posts, read 9,237,693 times
Reputation: 6395
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
The elders, teacher, prophets etc.... speak for God because He gave them the gifts.

Read all the verses leading to that verse. That verse is dealing with church discipline, not the definition of a church.
I've read them. I've studied them, and I've taught them. You are making a BIG mistake assuming that is "church discipline." It would really be helpful if, in your study, whenever the English word "church" is used, that you substitute the word "assembly" as that is a closer translation from the Greek and Aramaic than what we have become accustomed to as a "church." Where ever two or more are assembled Jesus promises to be there with you.

The Greek word kuriakos {koo-ree-ak-os'} from which we get our English word church is in the New Testament only twice, translated once as "the Lord's supper" and once as "the Lord's day" but never as a "church" as we know it. The Greek root of our English word church isn't used in the New Testament as "church." and the first place that you can find our word "church" is in Matthew 16:18 where Jesus is speaking to Peter, "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." The Greek word ekklesia {ek-klay-see'-ah} translated here as "church" (as it is in all 115 places in the New Testament) would have been better translated as "assembly" or "congregation". According to the Blue Letter Bible Dictionary and Word Search ekklesia (Strong's 1577) is a compound term for "out of or away from" and "to call or to be called to bear a name or title". In addition to the 115 occurrences where ekklesia is translated as "church" it appears in three more places in the NT where it is used to describe a public gathering or mob and it is translated there as "assembly". However, if you look at the earliest occurrence of the Greek word for "church" you can find that it meant "of the Lord" (kyriakon). The earliest written record of kyriakon was more than two hundred years after Jesus and the twelve (apostles) died. People used it of the building in which Christians met for corporate worship, kyriakon doma or “house of the Lord."

And why did there develop such confusion between “church” as being both the assembly of the Christians AS WELL AS the building in which they met? Jesus obviously held no high regard for the buildings and the organizations........He wanted and taught a personal intimate relationship with God. Not a hierarchy. Bring God into your heart. Not put Him in a box in town. Based on the original Greek language of the New Testament the word rendered as "church" and our English word church are not related at all. So why was it so confusing? For one, King James established a rule to govern the work of translating the Bible was that required "Ecclesiastical” words such as church and priest were to be used to translate their Greek counterparts. That way he could maintain the power base. King James controlled the Anglican Church and thereby controlled the common people......it was a political decision, not a spiritual one.

So don’t give me any crap about church discipline. And you might go a little deeper into what the words, as they were written, mean before you presume to lecture others on the scripture.

I'm sorry, everyone. I don't like to use scripture as a weapon or tool to beat people up with. It isn't for that purpose. Despite the politics and biases built into the scripture by people, the truth is there if you learn to see it. If you want to use it as a rule book, you are making a serious mistake.

Quote:
Matthew 7:21-23 (New International Version) 21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
And the will of the Father is that we get to know Him and have a relationship with Him. NOT to parse the rules to see what all we can and can't do.......the Pharisee, the Taliban, and the Fundies have proven that.
 
Old 03-31-2009, 02:26 PM
 
8,990 posts, read 8,215,332 times
Reputation: 723
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluefly View Post
That's a beautiful perspective, Sundance. It truly embraces the Biblical Jesus on every level.
You do realize there is God the Father as well. Why don't many Christians address the Father?
 
Old 03-31-2009, 02:33 PM
 
8,990 posts, read 8,215,332 times
Reputation: 723
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluefly View Post
MysticPhD follow scripture from a source of love.

You follow it from a source of fear.

I do not condemn. I simply observe the stark difference.

As in every decision you make in life, you have free will to choose your path - fear or love.
uh-huh...changing the meaning of words doesn't work. If it walks like a duck.........
 
Old 03-31-2009, 02:37 PM
 
9,978 posts, read 8,294,419 times
Reputation: 3505
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodpasture View Post
I've read them. I've studied them, and I've taught them. You are making a BIG mistake assuming that is "church discipline." It would really be helpful if, in your study, whenever the English word "church" is used, that you substitute the word "assembly" as that is a closer translation from the Greek and Aramaic than what we have become accustomed to as a "church." Where ever two or more are assembled Jesus promises to be there with you.

The Greek word kuriakos {koo-ree-ak-os'} from which we get our English word church is in the New Testament only twice, translated once as "the Lord's supper" and once as "the Lord's day" but never as a "church" as we know it. The Greek root of our English word church isn't used in the New Testament as "church." and the first place that you can find our word "church" is in Matthew 16:18 where Jesus is speaking to Peter, "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." The Greek word ekklesia {ek-klay-see'-ah} translated here as "church" (as it is in all 115 places in the New Testament) would have been better translated as "assembly" or "congregation". According to the Blue Letter Bible Dictionary and Word Search ekklesia (Strong's 1577) is a compound term for "out of or away from" and "to call or to be called to bear a name or title". In addition to the 115 occurrences where ekklesia is translated as "church" it appears in three more places in the NT where it is used to describe a public gathering or mob and it is translated there as "assembly". However, if you look at the earliest occurrence of the Greek word for "church" you can find that it meant "of the Lord" (kyriakon). The earliest written record of kyriakon was more than two hundred years after Jesus and the twelve (apostles) died. People used it of the building in which Christians met for corporate worship, kyriakon doma or “house of the Lord."

And why did there develop such confusion between “church” as being both the assembly of the Christians AS WELL AS the building in which they met? Jesus obviously held no high regard for the buildings and the organizations........He wanted and taught a personal intimate relationship with God. Not a hierarchy. Bring God into your heart. Not put Him in a box in town. Based on the original Greek language of the New Testament the word rendered as "church" and our English word church are not related at all. So why was it so confusing? For one, King James established a rule to govern the work of translating the Bible was that required "Ecclesiastical” words such as church and priest were to be used to translate their Greek counterparts. That way he could maintain the power base. King James controlled the Anglican Church and thereby controlled the common people......it was a political decision, not a spiritual one.

So don’t give me any crap about church discipline. And you might go a little deeper into what the words, as they were written, mean before you presume to lecture others on the scripture.

I'm sorry, everyone. I don't like to use scripture as a weapon or tool to beat people up with. It isn't for that purpose. Despite the politics and biases built into the scripture by people, the truth is there if you learn to see it. If you want to use it as a rule book, you are making a serious mistake.



And the will of the Father is that we get to know Him and have a relationship with Him. NOT to parse the rules to see what all we can and can't do.......the Pharisee, the Taliban, and the Fundies have proven that.
So much beauty emerging on this thread! True Christians demonstrating a full embodiment of the potential for a relationship rooted in love with Christ, the Father (there ya go, fundie) and the Bible.

It's beautiful!
 
Old 03-31-2009, 02:38 PM
 
8,990 posts, read 8,215,332 times
Reputation: 723
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodpasture View Post
So don’t give me any crap about church discipline. And you might go a little deeper into what the words, as they were written, mean before you presume to lecture others on the scripture.

I'm sorry, everyone. I don't like to use scripture as a weapon or tool to beat people up with. It isn't for that purpose. Despite the politics and biases built into the scripture by people, the truth is there if you learn to see it. If you want to use it as a rule book, you are making a serious mistake.



And the will of the Father is that we get to know Him and have a relationship with Him. NOT to parse the rules to see what all we can and can't do.......the Pharisee, the Taliban, and the Fundies have proven that.
LOL.......Please you taught wrong. You taught? a man who believes its ok to look at prornography. well then I surrender....LOL
 
Old 03-31-2009, 02:39 PM
 
Location: Gaston, North Carolina
4,191 posts, read 2,998,799 times
Reputation: 591
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundance View Post
You are not close enough to this man, to know whether he shows love to others, to be able to judge him.
Have you ever met him, do you know him? How do you know how he treats others?
He is openly gay, with just that admittion he has expressed disdain for the Lord and is bearing bad fruit and according to the Bible we will know them by thir fruit.

Quote:
But then...you do not know, and you are not aware, of what he has already suffered, in stifling his own true
self, he has pretended to be something he is not, because he wants to live a Christian life. He has repeatedly
stifled his homosexual tendencies, because he wants to be a Christian. Over and over again, he stifled, apparently, who he really is, to be pleasing to the Lord....is that not longsuffering?
He has fallen short by not suffering to the end, he has given up his love for the Lord for love of the flesh. He is not gay, he is a sinner who has given into temptation instead of stood strong for the Lord. Apparently he gave up on being a Christian and his little bit of suffering was for nothing.


Quote:
You do not know whether he has goodness, unless you know him, personally. Apparently, he is wanting to be a Christian, and live for the Lord, so he is at least reaching for goodness, he is trying. He is wanting to do good, to me, that is goodness.
He gave up and is no longer trying but is instead destroying any good he may have done.

Quote:
Whether he "close" to sin, it sounds like he has been choosing, NOT to sin, by being married for so long and
for living the "acceptable" life...and now, he is saying "I am gay." True, he is now choosing to "come out," and
identify himself for who and what he really is, but to me, that is not "choosing to sin." Yes according to the word,
sexual activity outside of marriage is wrong, it is sin. But many "straight" people have premarital sex --- are you
planning to straighten them out, too?
He is choosing to come our and denounce the Lord by his actions, like a dog returning to his vomit. Straight people are not the subject here but yes I will tell them the same things. As a matter of fact my oldest son is sexually active and I have lectured him numerous times, but he is caught up in what feels good rather than what is good.


Quote:
Please show me where he set himself above God, actually, you, and others of your mindset, are the ones who
set ourselves above God, by setting yourselves up and judge and jury, when the Lord is the only one who knows
this man's heart.
When he chose to fulfill his fleshly desires over serving the Lord he set himself above God, that he knows better than God. All we have done is share what God has said.


Quote:
Anyone who sins is giving into temptation. Are you saying you are sinless? If you ever commit a sin, then
you have no right to judge this man. That's why we are not called to judge others in this way, it can only be
done by the Lord.
Where does it say this in scripture. I know it says "Judge not for yea be judged, for by the same measure you judge someone you shall be judged" I have resisted same sex attraction and chosen to follow the Lord. I acknowledge my sins and lay them before the Lord. He has embraced his sin and called it good. I have merely pointed out what the Lord has said.

Quote:
You are not judging him correctly anyway, you are judging "the works of the flesh," instead of the "fruits of
the spirit," you've set yourself up as judge and not even doing the job properly.
I am judging him with the righteousness of Christ and not my own unrighteousness. You will know them by their fruit, not just the fruit of the Spirit but the works of the Spirit and he has quenched the Spirit.


Quote:
Why would you need over 40 Bibles, do you feel you would be lost without one? I have 5 or 6.
I used to be a garbage man, you would not believe how many Bible get thrown away. I have purchased several different types for certain studies and a better understanding of original intent. I have study Bibles, apologetics Bibles, Hebrew, Greek, Archeological, Dead Sea, various translations and interpritations as well as commenteries and dictionaries. I try to keep one in each vehicle as well as each room of the house and the office. I see a Bible I do not currently have and have the money for it buy it.

Quote:
Glad to hear you're no slouch in defending yourself, but that wasn't what I asked about..
I was just letting you know that if they push I push back.
 
Old 03-31-2009, 02:51 PM
 
Location: USA
1,861 posts, read 2,600,106 times
Reputation: 1755
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
You do realize there is God the Father as well. Why don't many Christians address the Father?
Is the name of Jesus offensive to you?

Why?
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