REPLY TOmari4him FROM BREADCRUMB (email@example.com) 17 July 2013
I'D LIKE TO REPLY TO mari4him (MINE IN CAPS TO NUMBER #) IN BRIEF TO THESE OBJECTIONS FROM MY OWN UNIQUE FIRST CENTURY PERSPECTIVE.
I have a couple of questions for you. Lets say you are right, which I don't believe you are, but lets say you are. On that premise, 1) ALL prophecies were fulfilled in 70 AD, thus
REPLY #1) YES THAT IS CORRECT. OBSERVATION FAVORS A C.1ST FULFILMENT OF ALL PROPHECY. MTT 23:35-36; 24:1-2;34 ALL THINGS COME ON THIS GENERATION. MK 13:30 THIS GENERATION NOT PASS TILL ALL BE FULFILLED. LK 21:22 THESE ARE DAYS OF VENGEANCE ALL THINGS WRITTEN FULFILLED. AGAIN LK 21:32 THIS GENERATION WON'T PASS TILL ALL FULFILLED. ACTS 3:24 ALL PROPHETS FROM SAMUEL FORETOLD THESE DAYS. 1 COR 10:11 US UPON WHOM HAS COME ENDS OF AGES. 1 PET 1:12 PROPHETS SERVED YOU.
these things were for 2) those of that day and not for or about us.
REPLY #2) YES, WHAT IT SAYS IS TRUE. THINGS PROMISED IN WRITING TO THE PEOPLE IN THE C.1ST APPLIED TO THEM, NOT TO US, THAT IS WHY THEY WERE TO 'COMFORT ONE ANOTHER WITH THESE WORDS.' 1 THESS 4:18
Thus this means then the saints were resurected and gathered up meeting Jesus. 3)
REPLY #3) YES THIS IS CORRECT. THE C.1ST MODEL WORKS ON THE PRINCIPLE THAT PROMISES MADE TO PEOPLE IN THE C.1ST GENERATION IN A C.1ST BOOK WERE FULFILLED TO THEM. SO I UNDERSTAND 'WE WHO ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN WILL BE CAUGHT UP…' MUST BE EXPLAINED IN THE C.1ST 'BIBLICALLY', SOMEHOW
They would have reigned with Jesus 4)
REPLY #4) CORRECT. (SEE ABOVE) JESUS WAS REIGNING FROM ACTS 2:29. THE EPHESIANS WERE 'RAISED UP & SITTING IN HEAVENLY PLACES' ALSO EPH 2:6 1 COR 15:25 HE MUST [CONTINUE] TO REIGN, BECAUSE JESUS' RESURRECTION WAS 'THE FIRST RESURRECTION.' COL 1:5 WHICH JAMES EXPLAINS CHRISTIANS AS 'THE FIRST FRUITS OF THE RESURRECTION...' JAS 1:18
1000 years, according to the prophecies in Scripture. And, during this 1000 years, satan was chained and bound, no longer able to deceive the nations. After these 1000 years, satan would then "be set free for a 'short' time". So, if this is all so and if it has all occured already. If the prophecies were fulfilled in 70 AD, the 1000 year reign of Christ and binding of satan would have all occured, 5)
REPLY #5) YES. THIS 'SATAN BOUND' NOTION WOULD LOGICALLY FOLLOW IN THE C.1ST. EVIDENCE OF THIS C.1ST SITUATION IS PLENTIFUL. MTT 12:29 SATAN CAST OUT, LK 10:18 SATAN FELL, JN 12:31 SATAN CAST OUT; 16:11 SATAN JUDGED, SATAN SOON TO BE BRUISED. ROM 16:20
then this would have taken us to the year 1070 AD. (fulfilment of the 1000 years taken literally to mean 1000 years) Why then is there no accounting of this incredible time in our history? 6)
REPLY #6) GREAT POINT. THE 'ACCOUNTING' MUST BE FACTORED IN, AND AS YOU SAY. FUTURISM FAILS, AND MUST LOOK THE WRONG WAY AS BOTH 1000 AD AND 2000 AD FAILED. THERE IS AN OPTION HOWEVER, TO JESUS BEING A FALSE PROPHET, AND IT IS NATURAL AND UNIQUE TO THE C.1ST MODEL. JESUS' FORETOLD THE TEMPLE DESTRUCTION EXACTLY 1000 YEARS AFTER ITS CONSTRUCTON IN THE FIRST MILLENIUM BC. (LOOKING BACKWARDS FROM JESUS' TIME GIVES US CONTEXT.) IT IS A FACT SOLOMON'S TEMPLE WAS CONSTRUCTED 930 BC. JESUS' TEMPLE PROPHECY & HIS FIRST RESURRECTION OCCURRED 960 YEARS LATER IN AD 30. 40 YEARS AFTER THAT (40=A PERIOD OF TRIAL) IN AD 70 THE TEMPLE WAS DESTROYED & PROPHETIC SIGN FULFILLED; TOTAL 1000 YEARS. ALSO, THIS SIGN OCCURRED ON THE SAME DAY AS THE FIRST TEMPLE WAS DESTROYED IN 586 BC. (10th DAY OF MONTH OF AB. ALSO IN AD 70 THE WALLS WERE BREACHED ON THE SAME DAY AS IN 586 BC, 17th OF TAMUZ ). THIS ATISFIES THE CONTEXT IN WHICH JESUS LIVED, PROPHESIED, DIED, AND WHAT ‘SHORTLY’ CAME TO PASS IN THE C.1ST.
...Why is there no account of such time in our history where the signs as given in Matthew 24:29-31 where it states that immediately after the period of tribulation, "the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven"? Where is the accounting for the anti-christ that was prophasized would come? 7)
REPLY #7) a) THEY ARE ACCOUNTED FOR IN THE C.1ST. FOR EXAMPLE THE ANTICHRIST YOU SEEK IN THE C.21ST WAS PRESENT WHEN JOHN WROTE IN THE C.1ST. CHECK IT OUT HERE. (1 JN 2:18; AGAIN IN 1 JN 4:3.) THE FUTURE VIEW OF BIBLICAL LANGUAGE IS UNFORTUNATELY LIMITED TO ONE LITERAL MEANING, BUT JESUS SPOKE IN FIGURATIVE LANGUAGE JN 16:25-29. "THESE THINGS I HAVE SPOKEN TO YOU IN FIGURATIVE LANGUAGE." THE 'ACCOUNTING' YOU DESIRE IS NOT ALWAYS CONCRETE, PHYSICAL , AND ONLY LITERAL. THERE ARE 1,189 CHAPTERS IN SCRIPTURE. OF THESE I COUNT ABOUT 530 CHAPTERS (APPROX 42%) CONTAIN FIGURATIVE LANGUAGE (FROM JOB ALL THE POETIC CHAPTERS AND ALL THE PROPHETIC CHAPTERS ISAIAH TO MALACHI, THEN MTT, MK, LK, PLUS 22 CHAPTERS IN REVELATION). b) ALL OF THESE SIGNS ARE ACCOUNTED FOR IN THE C.1ST WITNESS OF JOSEPHUS. (CF. WARS) c) A C.1ST VIEW SAYS CHRISTIANS WERE IN TRIBULATION IN THE C.1ST:- DISCIPLES IN TRIB. JN 16:33; ROMANS IN TRIB. ROM 5:3; CORINTHIANS IN TRIB. 2 COR 1:4; 7:4; THESSALONIANS IN TRIB. 1 THESS 3:4. JOHN AND THE SEVEN CHURCHES IN TRIB. REV 1:9.
If after this 1000 year reign of Christ occured, satan would be released for a "short" time. (Considering the term "short" in light of how you continuously claim it to be by man's understanding of time)...Why then has satan been then released for 938 years? Do you consider 938 years to be a "short" time? 8)
REPLY #8) GOOD POINT. THE TERM 'A SHORT TIME' FITS A C.1ST MODEL OF ENDTIME. A ‘SHORT TIME’ IS CONVERTIBLE WITH; 1260 DAYS, TIMES, TIME HALF A TIME, 3 1/2 DAYS, 42 MONTHS. THIS IS CONVERTIBLE TO THE THREE AND A HALF YEAR HORROR FROM 66 1/2 AD TO AD 70. THIS ALSO EXPLAINS THE 1000 YEAR REIGN OF DIVORCED 'HOLY CITY' JERUSALEM, JER 3:1-10 /REV 11:1-2; TITLED 'HARLOT' NEARLY UNIVERSALLY IN THE OT. (CF. ISAIAH 1:21, JEREMIAH 3, EZEKIEL 16:15,16,17,20,25,28,29,30,31,32,33,34,35,36,38,41 ; 23:3-5, 7,8,14,18,19,27,30,44; HOSEA 1:2; 2:2,4,5; 3:1,3: 4:10,11,12,13,14,15,18; 5:3,4; 6:10; 9:1.) A 'SHORT TIME' FITS A C.1ST MODEL 66 ½-70 AD.
And, if you don't deny the existence of satan/of evil and corruption in our world today, 9)
REPLY #9) FOR MYSELF I DON'T NEED AN HYPOTHESIS OF SATAN TO EXPLAIN MY SINFUL BEHAVIOR. FOR ME I SIN WHEN 'IAM CARRIED AWAY BY MY OWN LUSTS AND ENTICED.' JAS 1:14 . SATAN AS A SUFFICIENT AND NECESSARY CAUSE FOR PHENOMENA LIKE THE EGO-MANIA OF NAPOLEON AND HITLER AND MY OWN EGO-CENTRIC SHORTFALLS ARE BEST EXPLAINED BY EGO AND CAUSE-EFFECT (SOWING-REAPING) RELATIONS.
then do you call God a liar when He stated that upon Christ return we would be with Christ, that the old would be passed away and we would behold a new heaven and new earth FREE of corruption and FREE of sin? 10)
REPLY #10) LIKE YOU I ALSO WISH FOR CERTAINTY, BUT I FIND IT IS JUST MY OWN WISH. BIBLICAL IDEAS MUST BE PLACED INTO A CONTEXT OF THE FACTS OF; TIME, PLACE, CIRCUMSTANCE, IDENTITY AND CAUSATION. WE CANNOT IGNORE THESE OBSERVATIONS FROM THE WORD OF GOD. MAKING A CONTEXT OUT OF THINGS WE MIGHT WISH FOR OFFERS US PSYCHOLOGICAL COMFORT -AS AN EARTH-CENTERED UNIVERSE- BUT DISREGARDS OBSERVABLE FACTS OFFERED ABOVE.
Also, according to some of what you said, if I am not mistaken, it appears you believe that man would die, be raised up and yet die again, since these resurrected saints obviously are not walking among us today. Therefore... How do you explain that in Hebrews it clearly tells us that "it is appointed for a man to die once, but after this the judgment"? How do you explain that in Hebrews it also tells us that "Christ was offered ONCE to bear the sins of many" and that upon His second coming the world would experience life without sin and with the fulfillment of true salvation? How do you again explain that there is still sin in the world as we know it today? 11)
REPLY #11) a) CONTEXTUALLY THE JUDGEMENT IS TIED TO JESUS' COMING IN CLOUDS AT THE END OF THE MOSAIC TEMPLE (MTT 24:1-3) WHEN THE MOSAIC COVENANT/AGE WAS JUDGED (NOT WORLD BUT GREEK. AIOON). THE UNIVERSAL JUDGMENT IS RELATED TO THAT GENERATION - MTT 10:15; 11:21-23' 12:40-42; 23:35; LK 11:50FF; 13:28 ETC . THE FACTS SUGGEST A MODEL IN THAT GENERATION LOOKS LIKE THIS __________________+______X. AD 70 END OF TEMPLE/AGE /JUDGEMENT
b) FORCING BIBLICAL TERMS -SIN AND DEATH -TO BE ONLY LITERAL MIGHT GET YOU INTO A TANGLE BY NOT BEING ACCOUNTABLE TO BIBLICAL IDEAS. YOU ARE WAITING FOR THE ABOLITION OF DEATH IN THE C.21ST. FOR EXAMPLE DEATH WAS ABOLISHED IN THE C.1ST, PAST TENSE. "BUT NOW HAS BEEN REVEALED BY THE APPEARING OF JESUS WHO ABOLISHED DEATH.." 2 TIM 1:10. AGAIN WE SEE HOW BIBLICAL TERMS HAVE THEIR OWN MEANINGS. EG. "WE KNOW NO ONE WHO IS BORN OF GOD SINS.' 1 JN 5:18 BUT WE KNOW THIS CANNOT BE LITERAL.
Furthermore, during the days of Jesus and the diciples the written word was in fact the OT and considering that the NT was written after Jesus, what do you make of when Jesus states "as it was written". Isn't it clear that the fulfilment Jesus speaks of is in direct relationship to the OT as the OT is the only thing that was "written" while Jesus was here?
And, if all was fulfilled by 70 AD, meaning nothing left to fulfill, then what about all those who have died for the cause of Christ since then? All those who are considered martyrs for the cause, the faith, are all their deaths simply in vain? I mean if all was fulfilled, what exactly was the purpose of them going out, being persecuted and laying down their lives for the cause of Christ? 12)
REPLY #12) GREAT AND VITAL POINT. LET’S TRY THE LOGIC OF FUTURISM. THE ISSUE: JESUS' INTEGRITY. THE PRINCIPLE: IF JESUS CANNOT FULFILL PROMISES TO A C.1ST GENERATION HE CANNOT FULFILL THEM TO A C.21ST GENERATION. IF JESUS CAN FULFILL PROMISES TO A C.1ST GENERATION HE CAN FULFILL THEM TO A C.21ST GENERATION. JESUS MIGHT BE A GOOD CHAP, BUT GOOD CHAPS KEEP THEIR PROMISES TO PEOPLE WHEN THEY MAKE THEM. THE FACTS: "TRULY I SAY TO YOU, YOU [CAIAPHAS] SHALL SEE THE SON OF MAN COME IN CLOUDS." (MTT 26:64) THE RULE: OBJECTIVE TRUTH IS A CORRESPONDENCE BETWEEN STATEMENT AND FACT IN THE SAME TERMS. APPLY RULE TO FACT: JESUS PROMISED A FIRST CENTURY HIGH PRIEST HE WOULD SEE HIM COME IN CLOUDS IN HIS LIFETIME. MTT 26:64 A C.1ST MODEL AFFIRMS THIS OCCURRED THEREFORE JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD, THEREFORE A REASONABLE BASIS OF HOPE. BUT FUTURISM DENIES A C.1ST APPEARING, THEREFORE JESUS IS NOT THE SON OF GOD – AN UNREASONABLE BASIS OF HOPE. CONCLUSION: A C.1ST END TIME MODEL ACCURATELY ALLOWS JESUS THE MEANINGS OF HIS OWN WORDS. MTT 26;64 “YOU WILL SEE ME..” IF THIS WAS TRUE IN THE C.1ST, THEN ALL LATER MARTYRS WERE JUSTIFIED IN THEIR HOPE. IF FUTURISM IS ACCURATE, THEN NO LATER MARTYR WAS JUSTIFIED. A C.1ST MODEL EXPLAINS C.1ST PROMISES FROM A C.1ST BOOK IN A C.1ST GENERATION. THIS IS SIMPLICITY OF PREMISE.
Furthermore, what is the point of any of us preaching the Gospels to anyone? Why should any of us seek to expand the Kingdom of God if all has already been fulfilled and there is no further hope of Christ's return for all of us who came after 70 AD? 13)
REPLY #13) AGAIN AN IMPORTANT POINT AND THE SAME PRINCIPLE - C.1ST WORDS (WORLD) HAVE C.1ST MEANINGS. WHY? BECAUSE C.1ST WORDS HAVE C.1ST MEANINGS ACCORDING TO THE STATE OF KNOWLEDGE AT THE TIME. QUOTE. "THE EASTERN WORLD WAS VERY SMALL IN THE TIME OF CHRIST...FEW KNEW MORE THAN RUMORS OF ITALY OR GREECE. WORLD REALLY MEANT THE ROMAN EMPIRE AND PARTS OF ASIA..." UNQUOTE. ALEXANDER CRUDEN. CONCORDANCE.
THE PREACHING OF THE GOSPEL TO THE WORLD IS SPOKEN OF IN THE PAST TENSE IN SCRIPTURE. EVIDENCE:- ROM 10:18; 15:19; 16:26; COL 1:5-6; 1:23; 2 TIM 4:17. THE WORLD AS THE C.1ST KNOWN WORLD IS REFERRED TO AT:- LK 2:1; ACTS 17:6; 19:27; 24:5; ROM 1:8; 1 COR 4:9; COL 1:6; 2 PET 2:5 (WORLD USED IN THE SENSE OF AN AGE)
In fact, why do you even worry about whether or not we understand your theology if it really matters not, Christ has already returned, all has been fulfilled and there is nothing left for any of us? No blessed hope, assurance, or expectation of His return. No looking forward to the day that satan will be bound and cast into the pit. No looking forward to this new incorruptible heaven and earth where sin no longer abounds but which is the home of righteousness. 14)
REPLY #14) FORTUNATELY FOR US mari4him, THE EXACT OPPOSITE IS TRUE. IF YOU ACCEPT HE HAS KEPT HIS C.1ST PROMISES TO THE C.1ST GENERATION AS HE SAID HE WOULD, (MTT 23:35-36; 24:1-3; 34; 26:64 ETC) EVERYTHING FOLLOWS :- NEW SPIRITUAL JERUSALEM REPLACED THE OLD EARTHLY JERUSALEM, WITH A HEAVENLY KINGDOM REPLACING A FLESHLY ONE, AN ABIDING ORDER REPLACING ONE THAT WAS SHAKEN, A UNIVERSAL COVENANT REPLACING AN EXCLUSIVE COVENANT, A PERSONAL COVENANT REPLACING A NATIONAL COVENANT, AN ETERNAL COVENANT REPLACING A TEMPORAL COVENANT, AN INTERNAL SPIRITUAL COVENANT REPLACING AN EXTERNAL PHYSICAL ONE : JESUS, INTERNAL, ETERNAL, UNIVERSAL, PERSONAL AND SPIRITUAL. NOW THAT’S A SAVIOUR!
I mean if, all these things have come to pass already, if there is already the new heavens and the new earth where all is incorruptible and sin no longer abides, where death has no sting and victory over all evil has been accomplished, whereby we simply kneel at the feet of Christ in worship all the time, free from tears, free from pain, free from struggles, free from trials and tribulation, then does this truly not portray God to be some sort of cruel puppet master to have those of us, who came after 70 AD, after 1070 AD living here on this corruptible earth where sin does abide, where evil does still show its face and where we still have tears, pain, sufferings, trials and tribulations. Would this all truly not go against the very character of God being loving, forgiving, full of grace and mercy and instead make Him out to be some cruel being watching us struggle or suffer?
REPLY #15) IF YOU LISTEN TO YOURSELF CLOSELY, YOU’LL OBSERVE YOUR OBJECTIONS ARE CONSISTENT WITH EMOTION AND COMFORT WITHOUT A REGARD FOR THE CONTEXT IN WHICH THEY WERE GIVEN. YYOUR OBJECTIONS ARE ALL BASED ON AN ASSUMPTION OF LITERALISM. THE HISTORY OF SCIENCE TELLS US THE OBJECTIONS TO COPERNICUS’ ASTRONOMY WERE ALSO BASED ON EMOTION AND COMFORT ; 'WE ARE THE CENTER, WE ARE STATIONARY, WE MOVE IN NICE ROUND PERFECT CIRCLES ETC.
THE FACTORS OF EMOTION AND COMFORT CANNOT SUBSTITUTE FOR THE HARD FACTS OF; BIBLICAL CHRONOLOGY, BIBLICAL IDENTITY, BIBLICAL CONTEXT (IN THIS CASE THE C.1ST), CAUSATION, AND EVIDENCE OF THE BIBLICAL DEFINITION OF BIBLICAL TERMS, AND, I THINK MOST IMPORTANTLY, DEMONSTRATION THAT SCRIPTURE IS IN AGREEMENT WITH THE FORMAL PRINCIPLES OF RIGHT THOUGHT; TRUE FACTS AND VALID REASONING.
WHILE C.21ST FUTURISM OFFERS A NICE PACKAGE THAT CANNOT BE TESTED, IT DENIES JESUS FULFILLED HIS PROMISES TO THE PEOPLE PROMISED, AND IS PURELY A MENTAL SCHEME BASED ON AN ASSUMPTION LITERALNESS. OPPOSITELY A C.1ST IS SUGGESTED EVERYWHERE BY SPECIFIC C.1ST BIBLE FACTS, EXPLAINS MORE C.1ST BIBLE FACTS, AND MAY BE DEMONSTRATED BY EYE-WITNESS HISTORY IN THE C.1ST. THIS IS WHAT MAKES A C.1ST MODEL MORE OBJECTIVE IN MY VIEW, AND THEREFORE MORE CREDIBLE.
KINDEST REGARDS, BREADCRUMB.