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Old 09-17-2008, 12:10 PM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 6,350,271 times
Reputation: 58121

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This has needed to be seriously addressed for some time now on this board, and God revealed to me the scriptures to do just that.

I can feel God's utter disgust at the flagrant misrepresentation of His Word by way of this teaching. Preterism is the spiritualization of scriptures that then become anything that preterists want it to mean. This is essentially playing God.

The force-feeding and sheer argumentative nature of preterism alone makes it pretty obvious that it's incorrect. But here are some facts and scriptures that PROVE it's wrong.

Preterism insists that all Biblical prophecy, even Revelation, was fulfilled in 70 AD and that none of it is relevant for today's use. That is a fallacy created and perpetuated in the middle ages, to take away the focus from the terrible things that they were guilty of in that time period, and they KNEW they were guilty of, and did not want to be held accountable for. What better way to do that than to say that the Bible didn't apply to them? It's manipulating God's Word to suit one's own purposes at it's very worst.

Also, it has been proven and confirmed by the early church fathers that the book of Revelation was written AFTER 70 AD, in 95 AD!! If Revelation was meant for the 70 AD generation, then why was it written after it supposedly had already taken place? Exactly.

The following scripture PROVES beyond a shadow of a doubt that the preterist belief is completely wrong and needs to go back where it came from; the middle ages.

2 Thessalonians, Chapter 2...THE MAN OF LAWLESSNESS

"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come."
"Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day WILL NOT come, UNTIL the rebellion occurs and THE MAN OF LAWLESSNESS IS REVEALED, the man doomed to destruction."

Alright. Let me just pause here for a minute. Do you see and understand what is being said here, plain as day?
"Jesus WILL NOT return (2nd coming) UNTIL "The Man of Lawlessness"......who is the "AntiChrist"......IS REVEALED!!!!
Not only does this scripture PROVE that Jesus has not come because we KNOW that the AntiChrist has not been revealed, it also proves that the AntiChrist is a "MAN"!!! Singularly a man, one person.
Yes, there is the "spirit" of the AntiChrist that is among us right now. But this scripture is proof positive that Jesus has not returned and that the AntiChrist is a man that is still to come.

NONE OF IT HAS HAPPENED. The above IS THE PROOF.

Continuing on with Chapter 2:
"He (the AntiChrist) will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God."

When exactly did the above happen? It hasn't!!

"Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. FOR THE SECRET POWER OF LAWLESSNESS IS ALREADY AT WORK; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way."
"And then the lawless ONE will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy BY THE SPLENDOR OF HIS (Jesus) COMING!!!!!!

Once again, the scripture states PLAINLY that the AntiChrist is ONE, one MAN, that will be destroyed WHEN JESUS RETURNS!!

I won't quote the rest of Chapter 2, but I would suggest to read it. Those who are left behind after the Rapture and still refuse to believe and live for God will receive a powerful "delusion" that will blind them into believing the lies of the AntiChrist.


Teachings such as preterism are not just a matter of different interpretation. It's way more serious than that, and it is the "spirit" of the AntiChrist at work that tricks and fools people into believing such blasphemous things.

Not only is it dangerous because it's completely false, it's dangerous because it completely denies that Jesus is the Savior who died for us on the Cross for our wretched selves and sins, but it calls Jesus a liar because it voids, nullifies and robs the Church of the blessed Hope that He most assuredly promised to us.

This is serious stuff, people. Please, please, please repent NOW and be ready to meet the Lord at anytime. Don't believe the lies and deceit of false teachings and "new age" deception.

There is great HOPE in the Word of God which is the Bible, and that's exactly how it should be taught and understood.
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Old 09-17-2008, 01:09 PM
 
810 posts, read 850,334 times
Reputation: 184
I applaud your research and articulation. I too, agree that the prophecies in Revelation, and the kingdom Jesus spoke about have yet to be completely fulfilled.

I think the "man of lawlessness" is what needs more clarification. I think that this "man of lawlessness" is definitely antiGod. Instead of looking for 1 man, though...I would look for a larger group of people, that has strayed from the true teachings in the bible throughout time.

This "man of lawlessness" was already present during Paul's writings. Further down in Chapter 2 of 2 Thessalonians in verse 7 Paul says, "The secret power of the lawlessness is already at work...and then the lawless one revealed". So this "man of lawlessness" was already present during that time. A man can not live from that time until now, so it must not be 1 man.
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Old 09-17-2008, 01:52 PM
 
Location: Little Elm, TX
6,946 posts, read 7,345,966 times
Reputation: 4116
Quote:
Originally Posted by beeveenh View Post
I applaud your research and articulation. I too, agree that the prophecies in Revelation, and the kingdom Jesus spoke about have yet to be completely fulfilled.

I think the "man of lawlessness" is what needs more clarification. I think that this "man of lawlessness" is definitely antiGod. Instead of looking for 1 man, though...I would look for a larger group of people, that has strayed from the true teachings in the bible throughout time.

This "man of lawlessness" was already present during Paul's writings. Further down in Chapter 2 of 2 Thessalonians in verse 7 Paul says, "The secret power of the lawlessness is already at work...and then the lawless one revealed". So this "man of lawlessness" was already present during that time. A man can not live from that time until now, so it must not be 1 man.
Repedy rep rep rep!!!

Jesus had barely touched this soil before men started looking for an outward manifestation of what was to be an inward reality. I truly believe that the anti-Christ is the spirit of the flesh, which we are taught throughout the bible is at war with the Spirit of God, and the carnal mind which is enmity with God.
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Old 09-17-2008, 02:17 PM
 
810 posts, read 850,334 times
Reputation: 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
Repedy rep rep rep!!!

Jesus had barely touched this soil before men started looking for an outward manifestation of what was to be an inward reality. I truly believe that the anti-Christ is the spirit of the flesh, which we are taught throughout the bible is at war with the Spirit of God, and the carnal mind which is enmity with God.
Well thank you...if I could find an emicon to take a bow I would! I hope you don't want to take it away from me after I say my next point.

I was leaning more towards "man of lawlessness" to be the clergy, ANY clergy of ANY denomination who leads their followers astray from the true teachings. I guess that would stem from the spirit of the flesh...
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Old 09-17-2008, 02:42 PM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 6,350,271 times
Reputation: 58121
Quote:
Originally Posted by beeveenh View Post
I applaud your research and articulation. I too, agree that the prophecies in Revelation, and the kingdom Jesus spoke about have yet to be completely fulfilled.

I think the "man of lawlessness" is what needs more clarification. I think that this "man of lawlessness" is definitely antiGod. Instead of looking for 1 man, though...I would look for a larger group of people, that has strayed from the true teachings in the bible throughout time.

This "man of lawlessness" was already present during Paul's writings. Further down in Chapter 2 of 2 Thessalonians in verse 7 Paul says, "The secret power of the lawlessness is already at work...and then the lawless one revealed". So this "man of lawlessness" was already present during that time. A man can not live from that time until now, so it must not be 1 man.
Thank you, Beeveenh.

But I have to point out something to you and to Elmer. Verse 7 is speaking of the "secret power of lawlessness", not the "man of lawlessness". So many people are confused by the scriptures and what they are actually saying.

Yes, there is a "spirit of lawlessness" already at work. But Paul does not say anywhere that the AntiChrist is simply the evil workings of Satan. The Bible makes it VERY clear that the AntiChrist is a MAN, that will have special powers, as shown in the following scripture:

2 Thess. Chapter 2:9

"The coming of the lawless ONE will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders.."

You and others have to realize that not everything in the Bible is a metaphor! Metaphors apply to "REAL" events that are going to take place. Why is it so hard to believe what Chapter 2 is plainly stating?

And it's not just in Chapter 2!! Believing that everything is somehow already in existance spiritually and that's all it will ever be, whether it's the Kingdom of God or the AntiChrist, is clearly not what the Bible says.

There will be a very literal and real return of Jesus Christ, there will be a very literal and real Kingdom to come, there will be a very literal and real AntiChrist to come, and there will be a very literal and real end to this world. What you are doing is spiritualizing everything.

We live in a literal world....the "spirit" of God is inside of us (not outside) his Saints, and the Kingdom to come will be literal AS WELL AS spiritual. The Bible was meant to be taken literally and spiritually!!

The AntiChrist will be surrounded by his minions and evil cronies, but there is no denying that the AntiChrist is going to present himself as ONE man, with spiritual, demonic powers. He will come back to life after dying, for goodness sake!!! That's how He will be able to deceive people into thinking he is God.

I'm not going to argue this anymore. I am really tired and weary of all of this nonsense, and I can just imagine how God feels. What a patient and loving God to not have destroyed us already!!

Jesus will be returning soon, and I can only pray that eyes will be opened when they are left behind. Because I see no hope of them being opened beforehand.
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Old 09-17-2008, 02:44 PM
 
Location: Little Elm, TX
6,946 posts, read 7,345,966 times
Reputation: 4116
Quote:
Originally Posted by beeveenh View Post
Well thank you...if I could find an emicon to take a bow I would! I hope you don't want to take it away from me after I say my next point.

I was leaning more towards "man of lawlessness" to be the clergy, ANY clergy of ANY denomination who leads their followers astray from the true teachings. I guess that would stem from the spirit of the flesh...
No problem - in any manifestation, the number of "a" man, "the" man, or men would be a representation of the spirit (the beast) very previlant in the world today, but to "anoint" one to say he is worse than all of us would be to deny that there is nothing good in us, save Jesus Christ.

There is none that doeth good, no not one. (Rom 3:12)
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Old 09-17-2008, 02:54 PM
 
Location: Little Elm, TX
6,946 posts, read 7,345,966 times
Reputation: 4116
DOTL, you're an elitist if you think only you have a monopoly on truth. I'm not propping myself up, just asking you to come down here with the rest of us.
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Old 09-17-2008, 02:58 PM
 
810 posts, read 850,334 times
Reputation: 184
DOTL,
You said:
Quote:
You and others have to realize that not everything in the Bible is a metaphor! Metaphors apply to "REAL" events that are going to take place.
You also said:
Quote:
"...and there will be a very literal and real end to this world."
Do you mean that no one will inhabit the earth?
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Old 09-17-2008, 07:01 PM
 
249 posts, read 394,856 times
Reputation: 109
Moderator cut: personal remarks The passages you quote do not disprove preterism. You focus on only one part of the passage and toss aside and neglect the rest that doesn't jive with what you believe. Look ... I'm not a preterist ... I am very open to wherever the truth lies... be that preterism, futurism, historicism. I just get sick and tired of your spiritual elitism and selective reasoning of biblical text.

DOTL .. You are either completely ignorant of the truth or are just flatly rejecting any evidence that doesn't jive with what you want to believe. There is evidence of a post AD 70 writing for Revelation but there most definitely is no "proof" that Revelation was written post AD 70.

In fact, the strongest evidence is for an earlier writing.
The Date of Revelation: Geisler vs. Geisler (http://www.americanvision.org/articlearchive2007/07-25-07.asp - broken link)
Preteristvision - Questions and Answers
Dating and Interpreting Revelation
Revelation: The Revelation of St John The Divine
Dating the Book of Revelation - Jim Hopkins

You expect to make a claim and just have people take your word for it .... ya right ... let's do that. Wait a tic ... I have a better idea ... it's called "RESEARCH". Try it sometime ... you might like it. I encourage you to actually read the material in the above links and the dozens of others out there that offer objective discussion about the authorship of the book of Revelation. You are very unobjective so I would encourage everyone who reads these posts to not take your word... or mine... or anyone elses at face value.

We can all read, so how 'bout we use the skills God gave us instead of being lazy about it. I would not expect any of you to blindly trust anything I have to say. You can and should attempt to validate any point made by any one of us.

You quote 2nd Thes, 2. How do you know the man of lawlessness was not revealed? You make a claim for which you have no foundation. You insist the "man of lawlessness has not been revealed, but you have no proof that is indeed the case.

As well ... "He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." ...

Hate to break this to you bro', but the temple is gone and there is "ZERO" indication it ever has a chance of being rebuilt for any reason. The temple sacrifices are over ... no need for them to ever be reinstituted, so there will be no rebuilding of "God's temple".

Preterism is not blasphemy. You claim it is and you state "Not only is it dangerous because it's completely false, it's dangerous because it completely denies that Jesus is the Savior who died for us on the Cross for our wretched selves and sins, but it calls Jesus a liar because it voids, nullifies and robs the Church of the blessed Hope that He most assuredly promised to us."

Preterism does no such thing. You saying it does, does not make it true. I know many, many preterists. They all have completely sold themselves out to Christ. They proclaim him as savior as do I. As well ... it is futurism, not preterism that threatens most to claim Jesus as a liar. Jesus assured his disciples some of them would be witness to the "end times" and to his return. If he did not return to them and some of them were not witness to it, Jesus lied to them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DayoftheLord View Post
This has needed to be seriously addressed for some time now on this board, and God revealed to me the scriptures to do just that.

I can feel God's utter disgust at the flagrant misrepresentation of His Word by way of this teaching. Preterism is the spiritualization of scriptures that then become anything that preterists want it to mean. This is essentially playing God.

The force-feeding and sheer argumentative nature of preterism alone makes it pretty obvious that it's incorrect. But here are some facts and scriptures that PROVE it's wrong.

Preterism insists that all Biblical prophecy, even Revelation, was fulfilled in 70 AD and that none of it is relevant for today's use. That is a fallacy created and perpetuated in the middle ages, to take away the focus from the terrible things that they were guilty of in that time period, and they KNEW they were guilty of, and did not want to be held accountable for. What better way to do that than to say that the Bible didn't apply to them? It's manipulating God's Word to suit one's own purposes at it's very worst.

Also, it has been proven and confirmed by the early church fathers that the book of Revelation was written AFTER 70 AD, in 95 AD!! If Revelation was meant for the 70 AD generation, then why was it written after it supposedly had already taken place? Exactly.

The following scripture PROVES beyond a shadow of a doubt that the preterist belief is completely wrong and needs to go back where it came from; the middle ages.

2 Thessalonians, Chapter 2...THE MAN OF LAWLESSNESS

"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come."
"Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day WILL NOT come, UNTIL the rebellion occurs and THE MAN OF LAWLESSNESS IS REVEALED, the man doomed to destruction."

Alright. Let me just pause here for a minute. Do you see and understand what is being said here, plain as day?
"Jesus WILL NOT return (2nd coming) UNTIL "The Man of Lawlessness"......who is the "AntiChrist"......IS REVEALED!!!!
Not only does this scripture PROVE that Jesus has not come because we KNOW that the AntiChrist has not been revealed, it also proves that the AntiChrist is a "MAN"!!! Singularly a man, one person.
Yes, there is the "spirit" of the AntiChrist that is among us right now. But this scripture is proof positive that Jesus has not returned and that the AntiChrist is a man that is still to come.

NONE OF IT HAS HAPPENED. The above IS THE PROOF.

Continuing on with Chapter 2:
"He (the AntiChrist) will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God."

When exactly did the above happen? It hasn't!!

"Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. FOR THE SECRET POWER OF LAWLESSNESS IS ALREADY AT WORK; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way."
"And then the lawless ONE will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy BY THE SPLENDOR OF HIS (Jesus) COMING!!!!!!

Once again, the scripture states PLAINLY that the AntiChrist is ONE, one MAN, that will be destroyed WHEN JESUS RETURNS!!

I won't quote the rest of Chapter 2, but I would suggest to read it. Those who are left behind after the Rapture and still refuse to believe and live for God will receive a powerful "delusion" that will blind them into believing the lies of the AntiChrist.


Teachings such as preterism are not just a matter of different interpretation. It's way more serious than that, and it is the "spirit" of the AntiChrist at work that tricks and fools people into believing such blasphemous things.

Not only is it dangerous because it's completely false, it's dangerous because it completely denies that Jesus is the Savior who died for us on the Cross for our wretched selves and sins, but it calls Jesus a liar because it voids, nullifies and robs the Church of the blessed Hope that He most assuredly promised to us.

This is serious stuff, people. Please, please, please repent NOW and be ready to meet the Lord at anytime. Don't believe the lies and deceit of false teachings and "new age" deception.

There is great HOPE in the Word of God which is the Bible, and that's exactly how it should be taught and understood.

Last edited by Alpha8207; 09-17-2008 at 08:12 PM..
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Old 09-17-2008, 07:07 PM
 
12,396 posts, read 15,039,888 times
Reputation: 14619
Just a thought here before I go to the desert..It really boggles my mind that so many of us believers/christian who believe that the bible is Gods final spoken word to his children yet so many of his children over the 2000 years hence have claimed that God is speaking to them and sending post scripts to the world through them
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