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Old 10-08-2008, 04:17 AM
 
Location: PA
2,616 posts, read 3,916,264 times
Reputation: 465

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Quote:
Originally Posted by fancofu View Post
Wow... That's all I can say. You make absolutely no sense and yet you believe it. Wow. How long was the flood? 40-150 days?




Are you sure that "not all vegetation was destroyed"? What does Genesis 7:23 say?
Lets see Gen 7:23: And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

It seems to me all living things were destroyed. Birds, animals, and humans except those on the ark! Living according to the bible is called nephesh Choyah, that is breathing flesh. This does not include vegetation.

 
Old 10-08-2008, 04:43 AM
 
Location: PA
2,616 posts, read 3,916,264 times
Reputation: 465
Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
Sigh..... You folks still at it here? amazing! I remember why I signed off of these chatty little sessions what was it, a scant week ago. (That's in actual, not Creationist Time). You boys still at it I see. If you could find my second-to-the-last post (if I remember right) I noted how pointless it is to try to logically out-logic the dogmatists here. But I will say in their defense, boys, esp. my old friend NIKK, you certainly are VERY CREATIVE (pun pun) even as the logical arguments pour in! Absolutely amazing. For newcomers to the thread, I suggest that, unless you're really being entertained, you need to realize that these boys have a near-endless supply of counter-arguments. The critical difference is that while you are basing yours on observable, repeatable, testable and endlessly refined data, they are basing theirs simply on the "Proof of Faith". QED and all that.

Well, I'm going back to my massager/recliner. Bring it on! And watch out for those fast-moving Tectonic Plates (THAT was a good one!).
Good to see you rifleman. You sound very negative. I am not. I enjoy discussing our different points of view. I think it is important to talk even if you cannot agree on every point. Our ability to communicate complex ideas is what God designed us to do. It is written "come and let us reason together". God wants us to talk, discuss and reason.

One error that you make is that you think if you present a test report then that is it, the arguement is over. But if you have spent any time in the industry you will realize that there are test reports that prove everything either way. So, if I bow to this method we would sit here endlessly presenting test report after test report. So, I chose to just discuss it. Because it is the interpretation of the facts that causes the divide between evolution and Creation. The facts remain the same. We are all looking at the same evidence. But it is the conclusions we make after looking at this evidence that set these two world views apart. Someone might look at the mountains and say 'wow, these are old'. I may look at the same thing and say 'wow these look young and freshly made'. Who is right? Who was there hundreds, thousand of years ago? Who was there when they were formed? Not us, so, whether we look at them and say they are old or new that is arbitrary. When we look at something like the eye and say it is well designed or badly designed is just an opinion. And is not proof whether the eye was created or evolved.

Ultimately, I think there is no smoking gun for either camp. Even if something like an elephant started swimming in the ocean and began growing gills or if all of the dinosaurs that were thought to be exstint suddenly walked out of the forrest it would not change the arguement. I think it all come down to opinion and what your world view is will dictate what you believe.

Now, when Jesus returns to earth, since he is God, he can explain how he created everything and settle the arguement. I think, this is the only final smoking gun.
 
Old 10-08-2008, 09:34 AM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,616 posts, read 11,050,072 times
Reputation: 3717
Default Anti-Negativism!

Good Morning, NIKK! Happliy I respond thus...

In a nutshell, I mention again my problem with the dogmatic approach. This morning you'll reach for your cell phone. Will it work or is it just a hunch or a theory that it will work? Assuming you didn't take it into the shower or toss it out your 25th floor window, or that it's not charged up, you pretty much assume it will work. Why? Because the logic of past observations and continuing experience and product improvements indicate it will work. It also just makes logical objective sense that it will work, so you go with that. About 20 years ago, none of us were all that sure that we'd get good (or any) coverage or that these new fangled cell phones would work at all. 35 years ago we'd have laughed at the concept of cell phones at all. Can't be done. No mention of them even in old newspaper articles. I remember an acquaintance saying as recently as 1990 that the then-new digital cell phones would never catch on because they weren't all that reliable. That was the commoner's knowledge of the day. A sort of "flat earth" metaphor. Now, of course, we know better.

But then along comes someone who says "No, your cell phone won't work today because I believe it won't work. And what's more, it NEVER DID work!" Why? Where's this person's observable basis for such a screwball belief? And how can they deny the existence of something that's right there on the table in front of them? Ringing, no less? Well, frankly, nowhere, other than, say, some old written stuff (the equivalent of a newspaper article from 20 yrs ago saying that digital cellphones will never work properly). Still glumly, or happily, adhered to. With, dare I say, religious fervor.

So then we get into an argument between happy daily users of digital cellphones and those who still like rotary land lines and manual switchboards as the "only real truth". And an endless series of increasingly desperate (tho VERY creative, I'll admit...) arguments about how digital cellphones can't work, or a fall-back position that if they really do work, somehow it will signal the end of the world as we know it. So, ergo, we MUST believe in the old stuff at the expense of truth. Always at the expense of the truth.

Get it? "Happily yours" in debate....

Last edited by rifleman; 10-08-2008 at 09:37 AM.. Reason: typos
 
Old 10-08-2008, 09:41 AM
 
5,463 posts, read 5,775,683 times
Reputation: 1803
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikk View Post
The resistance is a switch in the DNA. This is common and everyone knows about it. This switch can be triggered and cause the bacteria to be resistant to anti-biotics, but the switch or the block is present in the bacteria prior to the presence of anti-biotics.
Sorry, the data disagrees. DNA sequencing has shown that resistance can be generated through new information in the DNA, not just activation of pre-existing sequences.

Quote:
No new information is produced.
The resistance wasn't present in the parent of the colony, after several generations of cloning with some mutations it was. I don't see how you claim that the presence of a totally new trait isn't new.

Quote:
Yes it is novel that God created into each kind of animal a vast amount of information. But is it evolution? No!
So the genetic makeup of the population changes due to mutation and natual selection, but there's no evolution? Isn't that the basic definition of the term?

Quote:
The anti-biotic resistance like other mutations come at a loss. Sometimes it is motility, sometimes it is being able to absorb certain nutrients. So, when the anti-biotic is removed then the resistant strain is in competition with a stronger non-resistant version This returns the population back to what it was prior to anti-biotic presence.
This ignores cases where the mutation doesn't cause any sorts of loss of vitality, or where the mutation is linked not only to antibiotic resistance but to increased capability in other areas. Don't assume that acquiring antibiotic resistance always requires a loss of function in some other area. The experimental data shows that is not the case at all.

And there's no reason to assume that populations revert back to some "ideal" form. You're letting your neo-Platonism Christian background seep into your view of science as well. The real world doesn't work that way.

Quote:
Also, if this is evolutions only smoking gun
Why do you assume this? If you're as up on science as you claim to be, you'd know that this is absolutely not the case. It's just one specific example of you making claims which are false. I don't have to list dozens of counter-examples to show that you're incorrect, just one.
 
Old 10-08-2008, 10:37 AM
 
Location: Missouri, USA
789 posts, read 1,168,573 times
Reputation: 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikk View Post
Lets see Gen 7:23: And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

It seems to me all living things were destroyed. Birds, animals, and humans except those on the ark! Living according to the bible is called nephesh Choyah, that is breathing flesh. This does not include vegetation.
What about Genesis 7:4?
 
Old 10-09-2008, 04:28 AM
 
Location: PA
2,616 posts, read 3,916,264 times
Reputation: 465
Quote:
Originally Posted by fancofu View Post
What about Genesis 7:4?
That's the same word for breathing flesh. What do you care about the bible. You have rejected God and only accept a naturalistic explanation for the world around you.

You want me to give you verse from the bible. So, I do, then you reject them. Then you ask me to explain the world based on the bible and I do. And you reject my explanation saying I didn't use scriptures. Now you keep bringing up scriptures, but don't even look at them. I think you are hoping to find a loop hole. But a loop hole in something you don't believe?
 
Old 10-09-2008, 04:39 AM
 
Location: PA
2,616 posts, read 3,916,264 times
Reputation: 465
The bible is the truth. Genesis is the explanation of how this world and universe and humans were created. You can reject it, that is your choice. Science looks at nature which was created by God. Science cannot find God, but can appreciate what he created. Science dose not have the answers for humans. God does.

Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Through him were all thing created from the beginning. Since he endorsed Genesis, then Genesis is the truth of the creation. Jesus claimed that man and woman were from the beginning of creation. There was no millions of years before them, because they were from the beginning.

What remains is whether you will accept or reject the son of God, Jesus Christ. It is written, "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish, but shall have everlasting life." In this present world there is perishing, but Jesus came that we may have life, and "life more abundantly".
 
Old 10-09-2008, 05:03 PM
 
Location: UK.
348 posts, read 450,452 times
Reputation: 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
City_boi: The evolution teaching does not contradict God and Christianity "a little." It contradicts God and Christianity a lot! The two are incompatible. It all boils down to this. Both the evolution model and the creation model require faith. As much as evolutionists like to claim, their perspective is not based on science but on speculations and unprovable theories.

The question is and always has been--what do we see around us? Do we see evidence that supports evolution or creation? We see like begetting like just as God proclaimed it would be. We see awesome complexity that screams of a designer. (Have you seriously and studiously considered your own body lately?). The sun remains fixed in its place, the planets continue in their precise orbits, and the earth remains in the perfect distance from the sun in order for life to exist. Our magnificent bodies, the intricate order of the world around us, and the vastness of the universes outside of us reveal the wonders of a God Who started it all and keeps it all together. If evolution were true, nothing would be because evolution lacks the power to create or preserve that which it claims to explain.

Preterist
So if God created man in his own image we may suppose that we are 'designed' in exactly the same way as him - which begs the old, unanswerable question 'Who created/designed God?' No-one has ever convincingly addressed that inconsistency, and probably never will! .... Incidentally, is God black, white or yellow? If he is any of these, the other races must have been created separately, something not mentioned anywhere in the bible - unless we look to evolution, which poses no such problem. Similarly, as all dogs are basically derived from the wolf, and therefore were clearly not 'created' in their present diverse forms by a biblical creator god - what but the laws of genetics and mutation can account for their existence? I could go on giving endless such examples, but if the creationists insist on ignoring the facts, what is the point? -- Sydneylupin.
 
Old 10-09-2008, 05:25 PM
 
428 posts, read 1,485,817 times
Reputation: 282
Quote:
Originally Posted by brianrees View Post
I could go on giving endless such examples, but if the creationists insist on ignoring the facts, what is the point? -- Sydneylupin.
Ah, it's almost a Zen koan. The point is, there IS none. Arguing with a Creationist using fact and logic is as pointless as trying to prove I don't really have a purple fire-breathing dragon in my garage (apologies to the wonderful Carl Sagan).

It is a shame we have such a prominent anti-intellectual moevement in this country that we have half the population believing in a crock of sh*t and denying science as "another religion". We can only hope things will shift in a better direction with a new administration, and we can teach our children real science with impunity. I wonder if these religious right fanatics have ever considered that a huge reason for the proliferation of Islamist terrorists who hate us is that they teach nothing but a Holy Book to their young boys?
 
Old 10-09-2008, 05:56 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,437,896 times
Reputation: 746
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mozart271 View Post
Ah, it's almost a Zen koan. The point is, there IS none. Arguing with a Creationist using fact and logic is as pointless as trying to prove I don't really have a purple fire-breathing dragon in my garage (apologies to the wonderful Carl Sagan).

It is a shame we have such a prominent anti-intellectual moevement in this country that we have half the population believing in a crock of sh*t and denying science as "another religion". We can only hope things will shift in a better direction with a new administration, and we can teach our children real science with impunity. I wonder if these religious right fanatics have ever considered that a huge reason for the proliferation of Islamist terrorists who hate us is that they teach nothing but a Holy Book to their young boys?
Man! You are absolutely right. I cannot stand those Christian suicide bombers. I mean Jesus preaching love and all that, just a mess.
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