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Old 09-23-2008, 04:24 PM
 
810 posts, read 850,818 times
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My point was, that people aren't listening to the bible, maybe they'd take a look at a nonbiblical source that says the bible says... God formed man out of dust.

 
Old 09-23-2008, 05:14 PM
 
Location: hopefully NYC one day :D
411 posts, read 732,731 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
Always, dependably, the YEC answer is to find micro-flaws in the science of dating, that the parent materials somehow behaved very differently than they do now, or that we don't absolutely know what the isotope makeup was then versus now. Well, true, but what about the also reasonable alternative that these materials were the same as now, or at least close? That sort of skimpy, narrowed, selective argument, if it served their dogma, would be trumpeted as the truth, but when it conflicts it becomes the assumed "truth" and therefore conveniently fully refutes the wholly logical idea that the age of these fossils is waaaay older than 6000 years. We have very good 7000 - 30,000 yr-old mammoth remains, with hair and tissue, in the ice and mud in Alaska & Russia, but NO dino skin, tissues, etc. That's because they're buried too deep for too long. Mammoth remains with spear and arrow points in them. Never any dino remains with stone spear tips. And NEVER under the earth at the same geological "level" as we find early hominid remains or mammoth remains. Doesn't this make anyone on the Creationist side even a little bit intellectually squirmy, that just maybe there's an alternate theory or fact about how this all happened? If it doesn't they certainly can't claim to be open-minded observers of our world. It's the mindless adherence, in the face of relentless and ever-increasing observation, that makes us aetheists wring our hands. Why celebrate ignorance, as in "the flat earth society", Thor, Woden, et al? If you simply want to adhere to your mythology at the expense of any openness to new and interesting information, why not just admit it instead of groping for ever more hare-brained dismissals of every bit of new conflicting info that surfaces. At least THAT would be honest.

If we always take the approach that every bit of info that conflicts with our dogma must, of needs, be faulty, and NEVER allow for the introduction of potentially rational and reasonable results, where will we ever be as progressive, intellectually honest and rational people?
Of course the observable and recorded evidence is that the Church and organized religion has, and continues to, relentlessly suppress new but conflicting info. In that regard, apparently nothing changes!
Wow, you have some good points!

Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
And how exactly did we change from an earth rotation rate that provides for an even temp variation (once every 24 h), to one where half the earth would be in the dark side for hundreds or thousands of years (1000s or hundreds of thousands of 24h days to complete one "day's" rotation). Very cold! Apparently God set up a "day" as, say, 100,000 years, but after Adam & Eve instantly changed it to a 24h day. And why did he do this exactly? Let's hear it, quick, now!
No, that's not what I meant. I meant millions of years as in many 24 hour days, not one long day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
What I will concede (But only if your side will also concede something... anything. Just this once. Anyone? Anyone?) is that our picture of things is incomplete. For now. But as you can see (eyes open please...), our store of provable knowledge continues to expand. Your world view, apparenty, comes about and (sorry) evolves through endless re-interpretations of some pretty slippery bible quotes. You are the sort of folks who should, logically, believe those Nostradamus prophesies (Hey! they were also written in an ancient book so why not?) but whenever anyone says "Nostradamus says such and such is going to happen on July 6, 2006" and it doesn't... well then.... oops. Ditto on biblical prophesy. Of course the inevitable asteroid impact (just give it time) will be seen as, of course, The End Times.

I'm waiting for some indication of critical thinking by any of you but I'm also realizing over the past week (the totality of my exposure to these chat rooms. I'm a novice at this) that there will be no changing your minds. You simply won't consider anything as an alternate possibility. Boy, when those other-world aliens really DO land and explain, complete with photos, the real non-mythical original of the universe, the gig will be up then, eh? What WILL you do in the face of a proven but secular alternative?

Anyhow, after trying to explain the inner technical workings of my VCR to my cat for the zillionth time, I've given up. She just can't / won't get it. Neither will you folks. You simply don't WANT to accept rational critical alternatives. It would require a complete and uncomfortable revision of your whole lives. Sad. Nuff said.
Wow, I totally agree!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikk View Post
I think someone should turn of the star trek re-runs and step away from the T.V. and take the tin foil hat off the head.
No, he has some extremely good points. You need to open your eyes and mind!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikk View Post
Jesus Christ confirmed the book of Genesis as a history, he confirmed Noah, the flood, Adam and Eve, Righteous Abel. When we reject Genesis as being actual history then we must reject the teachings of Christ. Since Jesus IS the word of God then, we reject him when we reject the word.
How do you know? Because the Bible said so? Well why do you believe the Bible? Because it is the Word of God. How do you know? Because the Bible said so.
How can you prove to me that creation happened exactly the way the Bible says?
Quote:
Originally Posted by beeveenh View Post
My point was, that people aren't listening to the bible, maybe they'd take a look at a nonbiblical source that says the bible says... God formed man out of dust.
You aren't looking at the evidence that is so obvious and right in front of you! And Encarta is basing it's info on the Bible, so it's not much different.
 
Old 09-23-2008, 06:16 PM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,621 posts, read 6,986,824 times
Reputation: 3631
Default Thoughts on the Thought-less

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikk View Post
I think someone should turn of the star trek re-runs and step away from the T.V. and take the tin foil hat off the head.


Wow (just a minute.. I gotta adjust this foil hat, it keeps slipping down! There... much better!) Now then.... where were you? Didn't you say you have some formal university training in biology? And you still don't fully understand the elegant, simple concept of mutation-driven adaptation and evolution? That, for example, random mutations can (and actually do, by the way...) provide the admittedly infrequent development of improvements in the geno- and pheno-types (Quick! Look up them big words and refresh your memory. I think it was in Bio 001) Sorry bubba; you won't be allowed on the spaceship. I've got (ahem...) three degrees, one in mechanical engineering, and two, plus a start on my PhD, in biology and the Application of Scientific Technology to Society. I've out-read, and apparently, out-thought, you. They're right here somewhere under this stack of Buck Rogers comic books.... Yup. My degrees. They're written on old paper too: does that make 'em more valid than the Bible? Specifically, one of 'em says "So and so is herein qualified... etc. Proof! And here's the corker: I used to be a Christian, but somewhere along the way, I learned a novel new process. University is NOT where you go to learn the intricacies of screwball debating by quote-mining, etc. but where you go to learn CRITICAL THINKING. Tell me, what "U" is it you attended? I'd love to look up their curricula and the credentials of their staff. Really.. let me know!

Well, Carl Sagan said it best when he said "There are billions and billions of them out there." Of course, he was referring to the numbers of the great unconvertable. Again, to my point: folks, nothing, ever, will ever convert these guys and gals. They are, they think, completely happy in their belief systems. And if it makes 'em feel safe from death, I say let's be "Christian" and leave them be. But sometimes I think we sorta should oughta walk away...

Anyhow, they are about to serve the Kool-Aid down in the lounge. Gotta go; see you tomorrow!
 
Old 09-23-2008, 07:17 PM
 
1,597 posts, read 679,102 times
Reputation: 487
Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post

Anyhow, after trying to explain the inner technical workings of my VCR to my cat for the zillionth time, I've given up.
For someone so educated - supposedly - you're not too bright if you thought you could instruct your cat on the workings of a VCR.....particularly if you didn't have any success after the billionth time, let alone continue on to that trillion mark and then quadrillionth, and so on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
She just can't / won't get it.
She probably does get it, but is of such superior intelligence that she enjoys listening to you babble on endlessly, waiting until the day you finally give up and realize she just doesn't care about what you're mumbling on and on about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
Neither will you folks. You simply don't WANT to accept rational critical alternatives. It would require a complete and uncomfortable revision of your whole lives.
Actually, I could frankly care less. It matters not in the least if I evolved or was created. What I focus on is the here and now - not a constant struggle to discover my origins. I figure I'll learn the ultimate truth about that in due time.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
Sad.
What I find sad is that someone would waste the money to get 3 degrees just so he could spend his free time coming in here to bash Christians instead of finding something a bit more productive to do with that edumacashun.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
Nuff said.
Well, no, apparently you didn't say 'nuff since you felt the need to once again grace us with your eloquence below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post

Wow (just a minute.. I gotta adjust this foil hat, it keeps slipping down! There... much better!) Now then.... where were you? Didn't you say you have some formal university training in biology? And you still don't fully understand the elegant, simple concept of mutation-driven adaptation and evolution? That, for example, random mutations can (and actually do, by the way...) provide the admittedly infrequent development of improvements in the geno- and pheno-types (Quick! Look up them big words and refresh your memory. I think it was in Bio 001) Sorry bubba; you won't be allowed on the spaceship. I've got (ahem...) three degrees, one in mechanical engineering, and two, plus a start on my PhD, in biology and the Application of Scientific Technology to Society. I've out-read, and apparently, out-thought, you.
Wow, you're also quite arrogant, aren't you?

Endearing quality. Really makes me want to tune in and listen to you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
Anyhow, they are about to serve the Kool-Aid down in the lounge. Gotta go; see you tomorrow!
Uh huh, buh-bye now. Don't spill the Kool-Aid all over your pretty shirt. You wouldn't want to have to take it to an unedumacaded Cristjin to kleen it fer ya'.
 
Old 09-23-2008, 07:40 PM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,621 posts, read 6,986,824 times
Reputation: 3631
There ya go... not answering the questions again... deflect deflect. You of course missed the point about education and arrogance: the previous author (was it NIKK?) proudly noted that he had a university degree in biology and therfore implied that he knew the truth about evolution. If a University Education is all it takes, well I guess I outranked him. But you missed that didn't you? Geez, having to explain everything is so boring to us arrogant folks... Sorry I upset you to the point that you couldn't see straight and just answer the questions or discuss the issues. Note to arrogent self: maybe I gotta simplify things in the future. And as for bashing; have Christians ever bashed aetheists? Why is a non-belief system so threatening?

Well, happy you enjoyed the show. As I said, no-one's ever going to change the minds of the true believers. And by the way, the Kool-Aid was good! One last point: maybe I'm mis-interpreting all of this, but do you Christians have a sense of humor? Really?

PS: the cat says you may be right!
 
Old 09-23-2008, 08:18 PM
 
1,597 posts, read 679,102 times
Reputation: 487
Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
There ya go... not answering the questions again... deflect deflect. You of course missed the point about education and arrogance: the previous author (was it NIKK?) proudly noted that he had a university degree in biology and therfore implied that he knew the truth about evolution. If a University Education is all it takes, well I guess I outranked him. But you missed that didn't you? Geez, having to explain everything is so boring to us arrogant folks... Sorry I upset you to the point that you couldn't see straight and just answer the questions or discuss the issues. Note to arrogent self: maybe I gotta simplify things in the future. And as for bashing; have Christians ever bashed aetheists? Why is a non-belief system so threatening?

Well, happy you enjoyed the show. As I said, no-one's ever going to change the minds of the true believers. And by the way, the Kool-Aid was good! One last point: maybe I'm mis-interpreting all of this, but do you Christians have a sense of humor? Really?

PS: the cat says you may be right!
Of course we have a sense of humor. That's why I laughed when I read your ramblings.

You're right - I should have read through all the posts. But still, I had to take that stab at your "nuff" comment.

And a "non-belief system" doesn't threaten me in the least. I don't pay attention to any of you guys. Well, not much. This thread being one of the few exceptions I make once in a while. But there's no need to listen to any of you mutter on, because it does nothing to enrich my life. I'm happy just enjoying life and my God, instead of striving to figure out my origins. Interesting that you exert (er...waste) so much time doing that when in the end you don't believe in the afterlife anyhow. Or do you? Maybe you feel you can share in one of your cat's nine lives.

See, we can be humorous. I thought all that stuff I just wrote was rather clever. I certainly chuckled at myself.
 
Old 09-23-2008, 09:45 PM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,621 posts, read 6,986,824 times
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Default Humor!

Well I'm glad you got a chuckle at our mutual banter! I really am new to this form of communication (one measly week); I can barely find my way back to threads and posts to see if anyone responded. I come from a past life of what I see as Christians bashing independant thinkers. Ive seen that they even "eat their own" if they get out of line. Ahhh the Catholic Church, or in my case The High English Church!

But my point still remains: why is it that, most often, when asked a simple question that suggests a logical thoughtful answer, Christians either deflect, resort to ad hominem attacks (and hence my similar response...), or slam the door in your face. If you ask us godless evil aetheists a simple question, my experience is that we'll thoughtfully try to answer it, even if the answer, honestly, is "I really don't know".. Which of course is held against us.

In one of my earier posts I simply asked why Christians never accept even the slightest possibility that they might be wrong. That the vigor they apply to discounting the latest and growing bodies of scientific understanding and systems theories, no matter how reasonable, might , if applied in some questioning manner, net them some greater understanding of how the universe might actually work. Just the slightest possibility? But no, never. Never to the "n"th power. Well, in the face of such awesome objectivity, is there any wonder that we aetheists become a tad bit skeptical and aggressive ourselves?

So, have a good night. Thanks for listening. Sleep well.
 
Old 09-24-2008, 02:58 AM
 
1,597 posts, read 679,102 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
Well I'm glad you got a chuckle at our mutual banter! I really am new to this form of communication (one measly week); I can barely find my way back to threads and posts to see if anyone responded. I come from a past life of what I see as Christians bashing independant thinkers. Ive seen that they even "eat their own" if they get out of line. Ahhh the Catholic Church, or in my case The High English Church!

But my point still remains: why is it that, most often, when asked a simple question that suggests a logical thoughtful answer, Christians either deflect, resort to ad hominem attacks (and hence my similar response...), or slam the door in your face. If you ask us godless evil aetheists a simple question, my experience is that we'll thoughtfully try to answer it, even if the answer, honestly, is "I really don't know".. Which of course is held against us.

In one of my earier posts I simply asked why Christians never accept even the slightest possibility that they might be wrong. That the vigor they apply to discounting the latest and growing bodies of scientific understanding and systems theories, no matter how reasonable, might , if applied in some questioning manner, net them some greater understanding of how the universe might actually work. Just the slightest possibility? But no, never. Never to the "n"th power. Well, in the face of such awesome objectivity, is there any wonder that we aetheists become a tad bit skeptical and aggressive ourselves?

So, have a good night. Thanks for listening. Sleep well.
You spelled "atheists" wrong. This is the perfect opportunity for me to rag on you and your college education, but I'll be nice.

Oh man, you're going to make me be serious here, aren't you? And I was having so much fun insulting you.

*sigh*

I guess I shouldn't do that anyway. It's not nice, so I apologize. It's not exhibiting the fruit of the Spirit when I get nasty like that. I'm kinda ashamed of myself.

And besides, you're a newbie to the whole "internet message forum" thing. (Boy, do I remember being new at that myself......many - too many - moons ago.) So word of advice....it's hard to "hear" the inflections in the "voices" of other people when they are expressing themselves via writing. It's also very easy to say whatever you want because there is the presumed safety of being behind a computer monitor, and therefore no one can jack-slap you for spouting off. After years of engaging in message forums myself, I still don't have a handle on it and can tend to be a bit defensive at times. Again, I am kinda ashamed of myself.

I honestly think the reason Christians....and yes, I AM a Christian myself (though some other Christians might think I'm a traitor or deceived or deluded or misguided for saying such)...what was I saying? Oh yeah.....I think the reason Christians deflect your questions or launch ad hominems is because they are afraid to concede that you might be right about something. That threatens their faith.

I can't answer your questions. There, I'll say that. But for me personally, it doesn't matter anyway. I don't get caught up in all this stuff about evolution or the Big Bang theory, etc. None of it impresses me in the least, and I don't think it has anything to do with the greater experience of life anyhow. I'm here....now.....and where I came from isn't as important as where I'm going.

I can see how the Bible could be reconciled with the concept of evolution and the Big Bang theory, but I keep my ideas to myself because I don't enjoy engaging in drawn out debates that are fruitless. I'm a different kind of Christian. I have ideas about things that would probably brand me as a heretic. As I alluded to above, I would venture a guess there are some Christians who wouldn't think I'm a Christian at all. But whatever. The thing is, I don't present my ideas as established truth for all others to believe, nor do I trust in my own ideas for my salvation. I don't push my ideas on others because I realize I could be wrong and I don't want to be a stumbling block to other believers. Suffice it to say I see God as outside of it all and unaffected by our human ideas and scientific theories. I don't think God can be proven by any human effort of our own, but I likewise don't think His existence can be disproven either.
 
Old 09-24-2008, 05:20 AM
 
Location: Texas
4,345 posts, read 3,715,470 times
Reputation: 820
Quote:
Originally Posted by aquila View Post
It's also very easy to say whatever you want because there is the presumed safety of being behind a computer monitor, and therefore no one can jack-slap you for spouting off.
aquila, you're a GENIUS!
We need to invent jack-slapping monitor technology. Then convince legislators to pass a law that all discussion forums will be only accessible to those with the jack-slap mechanical arm installed on there monitors.
We'll be rich and the discussion boards will be so much more civil.
 
Old 09-24-2008, 10:48 AM
 
1,934 posts, read 3,199,490 times
Reputation: 1209
Let's see if we can get this back on topic. The topic isn't whether evolution is true or not. Both biblical creationism and evolution at their very core requires faith to accept as truth or not their version of origins. I don't and never have disputed that -- they both require faith. However, the OP was really only whether evolution can be accepted by professing Christians and reconciled with the bible.

If my answer wasn't clear before, I'll make it clear now. IMO, it is inconsistent to accept evolution as truth as a professing Christian. I'm in the minority on this, but such is life. Again, accepting evolution and the gospel does not affect anyone's salvation. Only Jesus is necessary for salvation. However, I believe it is a slippery slope to replace the truth and authority of God's word with the assumptions of fallible man parading as "science" known as evolution.

It is a slippery slope because many former Christians realize that if evolution is true, then the bible is false. If the bible is false, then there is no need for salvation and Jesus is false. Trying to reconcile the two, evolution and God's word, is futile. There can be only one truth.

Accepting both by placing evolution above God's word, requires the distortion of more than just Genesis. If one cannot see that, then they need to study the bible further. The entire foundation for the gospel is in the historical book of Genesis. If Genesis 1 and 2 are "symbolic" then God is a liar and the rest of the bible is not worth accepting.

However, if Genesis is true and evolution the lie, as I believe is correct, then why place your faith in a hopeless worldview created by fallible humans? Why try to mar the perfect word of God to fit our ideas of origins? Why not re-examine molecules-to-man evolution and truly see why it is not proven, has never been observed and takes more faith to believe in than God??

As it says in Romans -- They exchanged the truth for a lie. I'm trying to keep the light burning so others may see how dangerous this can be and hopefully help them avoid a terrible fall. Loving God and following Jesus is not "death insurance" or "fire insurance" -- it is a natural expression of our spirits, to reconnect with our creator. Fear should not be a reason. If we love God, then there is nothing to fear.
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