Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I'm not interested in launching into a debate about this. I guess I just feel the way I do, and see things differently than some people do, for the reasons I do. People can agree to disagree, can they not?
Of course, you guys are more than welcome to cut to the chase and simply tell me I'm wrong, because that's what you're thinking anyway. I'm used to it.
If the megachurch is for the preaching, teaching and practicing the word of God, and for the fellowship of those who come to hear that word, it is fine. If it is for entertainment, and people pleasing...it is not....
The thing you need to consider is that church growth doesn't mean anything. A church may grow simply because it's popular. It caters to the desires of those who are looking for something that fits their "style" - a social club, of sorts, that gives them what they are looking for. Why else are they called "seeker sensitive"? Just because a church may be popular does NOT mean it's teaching proper doctrine.
A long time ago there was a pastor of a church in London that said when a church starts focusing on our needs instead of glorifying God, it's unscriptural. Isn't that basically what a "seeker-sensitive" church does?
so true,
the biggest church in existence is the church of the firstborn, it is God's only church and i guarantee it is MEGA.
God can and does use all kinds of vehicles to get his word out to those he loves. Some need a standard sermon or bible study. Some are at a place where they can only handle milk, would choke on meat. God in his mercy and love will get his message out and there are many who God has given giftings and passions to reach those that won't come thru traditional channels.
To some of us used to a meatier style, this seems watered down. But God uses these various methods or techniques to get his message out. Just because a medium has entertainment value, doesn't mean a message doesn't come thru that can change a life.
Again, I encourage each one to rejoice with their brothers and sisters who are ministering in the love of God to those who do not know him and to those who are babes. The method might not do much for us at different stages, but lets rejoice with what God is doing. And again, if it is not of God, God can shut the whole thing down. He is the head, we are the body. It is the place of the head to do the work of pruning, not ours, nor is it our place to direct the head and tell it what to do.
There are enough lost people that we need every church to do all in its power to reach those who are dying and hell bound. If our focus is just on those already within the church and we are in a mindset of fighting over which of the saints belongs on which membership roll, then this kind of infighting will happen. But when we focus on God and on the lost, we cannot forsake what other streams of the body of Christ are doing.
If a church is in error, pray that God's will be done and his kingdom come into that fellowship. Lift up the pastor, not in a judgmental prayer, but that God truly bless him and mature him.
OK, I've ranted on enough here, need to quit. By the way, I go to a church of around 700, was previously before my move in a church of around 100, have never belonged to a church larger than 1500. But I have been blessed by several mega churches and their ministries. My personal "tastes" like something more intimate, but hey, God bless those brothers and sisters and the great things those folks are doing for the Lord.
I'm not interested in launching into a debate about this. I guess I just feel the way I do, and see things differently than some people do, for the reasons I do. People can agree to disagree, can they not?
Of course, you guys are more than welcome to cut to the chase and simply tell me I'm wrong, because that's what you're thinking anyway. I'm used to it.
Aquila,
I hope you didn't take what as I said as trying to tell you that you are wrong. It's not a matter of being right or wrong. Sometimes our opinions about something is merely based upon our own experiences in that area. I know that there are many churches out there that are not in line with God's word, they are the tickle the ears church that care more about money coming in and numbers than they do about souls.
The only thing I was trying to do is share examples of how some of these things that are part of churches, big and small alike, can very much be used to advance the kingdom of God. It all does boil down to is the church teaching truth. Is it proclaiming the gospel and is it glorifying God. If it is, then it doesn't matter if it is a mega church or a church of 50. And also, that a church knowing it's congregation, knowing it's community, adopts ministries, programs and activities that meet the needs of that community and the congregation does not mean that it is watering the gospel down to entertainment purposes only. It can very much be advancing the kingdom through such things. Again, it's all about the meat of it all, does it glorify God in the end.
We can learn from each other, and I do agree and do not deny that there are some churches that are out there that are not aligned with God's word. I just wouldn't generalize all mega churches to be as those, nor would I generalize that all Christians who seek a church that fits into their style of worship, learning and meets the needs of their family are more concerned with comfort and entertainment than truth.
I say that because I am one of those. I definately, in my search for a home church, sought one that fit my worship style, I can not just stand there all subdued during worship. I get into worship and praise and worship is a huge part for me, I hate whenever I miss it for I feel it is part of what transitions me from leaving all the concerns of life, whatever I walked in the church carrying on my shoulders and places me right before my heavenly Father, with an open heart, surrendered to Him and ready to hear, see, and learn all He would have me learn that day.
It is also very important to me that the church has programs for my children. They live day in and day out receiving pressures and influences from the world, I want to know that my church can offer more than a sunday morning service for them to balance them out and keep them focused. I have 3 teenagers and it is a battle in this day and age with so many wrong views and attitudes about things being promoted as being okay. Sin is everywhere and they are exposed to it daily in their schools and in our communities. I enjoy the fact that my church provides opportunities for them to be involved in church activities above and beyond Sunday morning. They have youth group as well, they have youth bible study, they have youth prayer meetings. These are all important to me. It is also an added benefit that they also have youth fellowships and fun activities that they plan with the youth. It's important that our youth know that you can have fun in a Godly way. The church can most definately help with that.
Thats all I was trying to say, and I apologize if my post came across as trying to point a finger at you and say you are wrong, I truly just wanted to give you a different opinion, different view. Definately though, you are entitled to your opinion and to hold to it.
I guess it depends on the type of "megachurch" you have in mind. Most megachurches are some form of nondenominational or evangelical, pop-pyschology teaching, feel-good social clubs. I think their spirituality is hollow. They focus too much on making sure people are entertained by PowerPoint presentations, or cutesy cartoons that are projected onto a screen by a multi-thousand dollar media system/sound board. They focus too much on making people feel good. I see them as markets that strive to gain members by catering to what people want. They are too "seeker sensitive". They want to mold the church according to what is convenient and pleasant for the congregation instead of striving to teach people they should be separated from that which is worldly.
In addition to that, I have a problem with some of them that like to pass out free sodas at intersections, or give free car washes to people (who can otherwise afford to do these things on their own) but don't preach the gospel while doing it. What good is their "random act of kindness"? All they want to do is get people to come to their church to hear the message. Why make people come to the church to hear it when they should be preaching it while doing their "acts of kindness" - which, if I might add, is something Jesus preached against. We aren't supposed to perform our acts of charity for all to see.
Plus, when they spend millions of dollars for new facilities that include coffee bars, gymnasiums, bookstores and stadium-style seating, as well as fountains on the property.....that rubs me the wrong way.
Well let us not forget that is how the Old School Mega Churches got their start. By that I mean, Catholic and numerous Mega-Protestant denominations. Breaking away from the established norm and creating an independent message that tickled the ears of a certain following in turn created a whole new church. Although in this case the term MEGA-Church has to do with an actual massive building structure and headed by a human god-like figure that members flock to. They do indeed take away from the smaller neighborhood Churches, but remember, all those small Churches are part of an old established MEGA-Church system long before the personal ministries of these modern-day Gurus came along.
Everything you have stated is true, however it is not what the people today want to hear. It's all about feeling good. The philosophy of "You're okay, I'm okay, Everybody's okay" does'nt have it's foundation or roots in the bible. When we look at many of the reasons the clergy of the Jewish religion was rejected by God , we see the same similarity you mentioned above. Here's how the American Standard Version puts it in Micah 3:11
"The heads thereof judge for reward, and the priest thereof preach for hire, and the prophets thereof devine for money: yet they lean upon Jehovah, and say, 'Is not Jehovah in the midst of us? no evil shall come upon us.' "
The Jewish religious leaders turned the worship of the God of Israel into a Mega-Profit business and they were condemned for it and eventually rejected permanently by God. The idea that it is wrong to criticize other Christian religions for their wrong conduct is out of harmony with the pattern Jesus Christ himself set when he continually criticized the Jewish Religious leaders of his day who claimed to be serving the Almighty God of the nation of Israel of which he himself was a part. As an example he condemned the money making enterprise of the clergy of his day and their use of the Temple for that purpose. Again the American Standard Version puts it beautifully at Matthew 21:13
"and he saith unto them, 'It is written, My house shall be called a house of prayer: but ye make it a den of robbers."
Today it is accepted to pass around a collection plate in full view of all. Jesus did not establish the collection plate as the Christian way. We remember how Jesus once observed a widow dropping two small coins into the treasury chest in the Temple. This example is often cited as a reason for the collection plate. However it should be noted that this chest was never passed around for others to view what their fellow Christians were giving, it was in a fixed location. The contribution was a private matter. The purpose for the treasury chest was not for there for the purpose of Religious leaders to personally enrich themselves as we have seen so much in these modern times.
Again Jesus Christ himself set the standard on this. He was never paid any type of salary. Jesus himself was a Carpenter and the Apostles likewise had a secular means of support for themselves so as not to put a financial burden on the bothers in the early Christian congregation. Most modern day Christianity is sadly far removed from the original pattern laid out in the Bible.
You sight scriptures to make a point that doesn't hold up to scrutiny of scripture in full. I am at work and only have a minute, so don't have time to look up references, but will sight these examples that pop into my head:
The nation of Israel's practice of tithing, which was bringing the first fruit offering, one tenth of the harvest. Can hardly be considered giving in private.
The disciples had a treasurer (Judas) and as such did have a budget and enough in the till so to speak to not be aware when it was being pilfered from.
The new testament church lived a lifestyle of giving all that they owned to the church. Ananias and Sapphira would have been considered the top givers in most churches today, but lost their lives for being deceptive in their giving. Could make the argument that their downfall WAS that their giving was done in private.
Much of your points are well heeded here, but making the conclusions you do is not a well rounded biblical approach to church financial practice. You have first taken a stance that churches today are in error in their financial doings and then hand picking scriptures to back up your point.
If Jesus and his disciples could so readily view the widow and her gift, it wasn't the private matter you make it out to be.
I am NOT saying that passing the plate is a truly biblical practice. Much we do in church life does not have a practical direct link to the bible. Hymn books vs. overheads or powerpoint? Youth ministries? Chandeliers, steeples, stained glass, sound systems.... hey there wasn't electricity in the bible, are we in error for having power run into the church building?
However, the bible does speak to money and its power and our response as Christians on a level as much as any other subject. But when you view the overall theme, it is much more on a level of where our hearts as believers lie.... does money rule us, do we trust in money more than God, are we considering our giving as an act of worship? These are the core questions revolving Christians, the church and money, not whether or not we pass a plate or have a box. These are more cultural differences that I don't think God is getting nervous about.
The wrong theme I see in many of these posts is a conclusion that since a mega church has so much more money than a smaller church that it is automatically more worldly. However, having had the wonderful opportunity to do mission work in impoverished countries, the smaller non-mega American congregation is so much more wealthier than the tin roofed, wooden slat seated mud floored church building I have worshipped in, that they have a much more solid case to use this argument. If we are going to compare ourselves to others and make a case for our solid biblical foundation because we don't spend money on this and that, stack your church up against the congregations I worked with in Africa. A small church without a coffee bar, gymnasium and big screen, even the simplest church in America is still exponentially so much wealthier than these African churches, that the difference between the smaller American church and the mega church down the road that is despised by many of you does not even register on this chart.
God does not create us all equal. You can find biblical examples of both wealth and poverty where God used the individual. You can find biblical examples of wealth and poverty where hearts were hard toward God (the guy with the one talent that was rebuked where the one with ten was blessed is a good example).
The amount of money does not matter. The way money is collected, while it might not be the best practice, still is not the matter. The crux of the issue with money is: are you being accountable to God with what you have been given.
I am praying and asking God why this thread has touched me so and why I feel the need to respond to all this criticism. I hate the church being so divided, I hate brothers and sisters of Christ pointing the fingers at one another and pointing out the other's faults. Reminds me of children fighting over a toy, not necessarily because they want it or need it right then, but simply because the other one has it.
OK, if I don't get back to work, I will be in biblical error. Blessings on you all.
Last edited by Saintmarks; 09-23-2008 at 08:52 AM..
God does not create us all equal. You can find biblical examples of both wealth and poverty where God used the individual. You can find biblical examples of wealth and poverty where hearts were hard toward God (the guy with the one talent that was rebuked where the one with ten was blessed is a good example).
I have to say I have pretty much agreed with most of what you have said, however, I have to disagree with this part. I believe God does in fact create us as equals, in terms of being His children. Although our circumstances may be different and the amounts of our "wealth" may be unequal, this doesn't remove the fact that in God's eyes we are all His children, we are all equal. His blessings upon our lives, however, can and often are in direct connection to the relationship we have with Him and how He wants to use us.
I may have read more into what you wrote in that sense, and if I did I apologize, it just kind of struck me I guess.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
