Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 09-25-2008, 01:20 PM
 
Location: Georgia native in McKinney, TX
8,057 posts, read 12,793,132 times
Reputation: 6318

Advertisements

Freedom,

Please don't take this wrongly, this is more a question to pose to this discussion as to a personal affront. But I don't know how to bring it up without making it sound personal.

What do you do when you sin? How do you see your failure as expressing your love to God? Do you see yourself as fallen from grace if you sin? Surely you are not saying you are perfect and have not once come short of the requirements of the law.

The reason I'm asking is that the law (according to Paul's great exposition of it in Romans) is a measuring device designed to show us that we are sinners, to show us that we have fallen short. How can you equate your love for God by using a device that is so holy that Jesus himself is the only one that ever kept it to its high standard of perfection?

I say that Jesus posed this question that loving him was keeping the law, not as a decree for us but to point out that it is impossible for man to keep, save for Jesus himself. He posed that question to point out that we need a savior, require a savior to fulfill the law. When we cease our resistance and accept him, we have then been imputed with his righteousness. The righteous requirement of the law has been fullfilled by Jesus on our behalf. Why go back to trying to keep it?

You respond to me (and Elmer and others who preach this message) like we are happy to be saved and then we are just coasting around doing whatever we please. This couldn't be further from the truth. However I know that I have no power within me to keep the law so why even look to it as my measure of love to my Savior? My love still isn't even the issue. God's love for me is so great my love in return is nothing more than a feeble response. We love because he first loved us. He gets glory not in our limited love but that we open up and receive his great love.

That to me is the essence of the gospel.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 09-25-2008, 01:37 PM
 
Location: New Zealand
11,713 posts, read 3,577,360 times
Reputation: 1093
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to mari4him again.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-25-2008, 03:06 PM
 
Location: Socialist Republik of Amerika
6,205 posts, read 12,829,291 times
Reputation: 1114
Quote:
Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
It's hard to take literally the concepts we're speaking of, but don't underestimate the presence of pride in the Christian life - as the child of God depends more in his/her Father, the greater the life that flows from them.

As for eating, it's Him who gives us the craving to do so! I will feed my flock, and I will cause them to lie down, saith the Lord GOD. (Eze 34:15)
Yes, all comes from God... Even the reality of us learning to become men and women, learning to stand, walk and grow... We are not robots, or puppets that God amuses himself with. The whole point of life is to have Joy. Joy only comes from learning to live and be like God.



Quote:
I must disagree, once again - for it is God which works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. (Phil 2:13) I believe He is the Life, from inception forward - our steps are ordered of the Lord. When I sit in darkness, the LORD shall be a light unto me. (Mic 7:8)
Then why does He not make everyone to just not sin? What is the purpose of life, if not to make choices and learn from them?

godspeed,

freedom
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-25-2008, 03:37 PM
 
Location: Socialist Republik of Amerika
6,205 posts, read 12,829,291 times
Reputation: 1114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintmarks View Post
Freedom,

Please don't take this wrongly, this is more a question to pose to this discussion as to a personal affront. But I don't know how to bring it up without making it sound personal.

What do you do when you sin? How do you see your failure as expressing your love to God? Do you see yourself as fallen from grace if you sin? Surely you are not saying you are perfect and have not once come short of the requirements of the law.
Repent and go on, continueing to grow from grace to grace.

Quote:
The reason I'm asking is that the law (according to Paul's great exposition of it in Romans) is a measuring device designed to show us that we are sinners, to show us that we have fallen short. How can you equate your love for God by using a device that is so holy that Jesus himself is the only one that ever kept it to its high standard of perfection?
Never sinning and overcoming sin are two completely different estates. We have an advocate that can and will lead us into holiness, IF we believe and seek, and desire that to happen. By His guidance i have overcome many weaknesses and continue to see fruit by asking for Him to guide and give me strength. I have to desire, ask, and seek. It's not like He is going to interfere in my free will and just do it all for me.

Quote:
I say that Jesus posed this question that loving him was keeping the law, not as a decree for us but to point out that it is impossible for man to keep, save for Jesus himself. He posed that question to point out that we need a savior, require a savior to fulfill the law. When we cease our resistance and accept him, we have then been imputed with his righteousness. The righteous requirement of the law has been fullfilled by Jesus on our behalf. Why go back to trying to keep it?
Given the context i have to completely disagree, why did He then go on to say, If you say you love me and keep not my commandments then you are a liar and the truth is not in you?


Quote:
You respond to me (and Elmer and others who preach this message) like we are happy to be saved and then we are just coasting around doing whatever we please. This couldn't be further from the truth. However I know that I have no power within me to keep the law so why even look to it as my measure of love to my Savior? My love still isn't even the issue. God's love for me is so great my love in return is nothing more than a feeble response. We love because he first loved us. He gets glory not in our limited love but that we open up and receive his great love.

That to me is the essence of the gospel.
If your love is no issue, then why is the first and second great commandments to love, it is a given that God loves His children. He wants to know if we love Him, enough to live the way His prophets and Messiah have taught for thousands of years. Your's and many other professed Christian doctrines are in vain, because they take the letters of Paul and hold them higher than the teachings of our Lord. Think deep about that, it is not something to take lightly. The bible college professors have ignored the words of Christ and made them of none affect in the lives of those that buy into the i need do nothing mentality. We are more than conquerors through Christ doesn't mean that we say a prayer and go about living in the flesh... It means we learn from His teachings and Pray with all the energy of our hearts to live according to the Spirit of God, knowing that we can overcome, and not be slaves to sin.

godspeed,

freedom
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-25-2008, 03:58 PM
 
Location: Pilot Point, TX
7,874 posts, read 14,117,383 times
Reputation: 4817
Quote:
Originally Posted by freedom View Post
Yes, all comes from God... Even the reality of us learning to become men and women, learning to stand, walk and grow... We are not robots, or puppets that God amuses himself with. The whole point of life is to have Joy. Joy only comes from learning to live and be like God.

Certainly not robots, but we are to live, and move, and have our being in Him. Being graphted into the Vine means that our "meat" - our sustenance - is His very body. That's as intimate a description as could be related in the text. We then walk - and grow - just as the fruit from the First Fruit, there is no deviation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by freedom View Post
Then why does He not make everyone to just not sin? What is the purpose of life, if not to make choices and learn from them?
That's of course the "eternal" question of sovereignty - you do consider Him sovereign, right? - but this world has a Master plan. Not to sin would see no need for a Savior; without the sacrifice from Him there is no relationship of the child, the prisoner, the beggar that we are to know THAT kind of love, imo. Our failures are not failures to Him, I am sure of it, for they simply draw us to a deeper reliance on Him.

P.S. Does anyone know if there's a alternate spelling to "graphted"?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-25-2008, 04:11 PM
 
Location: Socialist Republik of Amerika
6,205 posts, read 12,829,291 times
Reputation: 1114
Quote:
Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
Certainly not robots, but we are to live, and move, and have our being in Him. Being graphted into the Vine means that our "meat" - our sustenance - is His very body. That's as intimate a description as could be related in the text. We then walk - and grow - just as the fruit from the First Fruit, there is no deviation.
Why everytime i say we need to choose to live His teachings do you think it means without Him.... If you love Him, You keep His commandments. If it only matters with love, then don't we need to Love? Isn't that why we are here to Love, which is a action word... If every man is judged according to their deeds, then our deeds matter. I hear to often... I'm saved it doesn't matter what i do, ITS ALL JESUS. Like He is going to exalt someone that doesn't care to love and learn or keep His word... Hey if salvation is the highest some can think of... well godspeed to them... but there is something more than being salvaged. There is the divine nature, holiness, righteousness even godliness.




Quote:
That's of course the "eternal" question of sovereignty - you do consider Him sovereign, right? - but this world has a Master plan. Not to sin would see no need for a Savior; without the sacrifice from Him there is no relationship of the child, the prisoner, the beggar that we are to know THAT kind of love, imo. Our failures are not failures to Him, I am sure of it, for they simply draw us to a deeper reliance on Him.

P.S. Does anyone know if there's a alternate spelling to "graphted"?
Yes God is Sovereign, and a sovereign separates the wheat from the chaff...

Your description of Jesus is not what He taught... He said the things that He did we shall do and more. IF we believe, and keep His word. If you keep not His word then you have no Promise.

"grafted"

godspeed,

freedom
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-25-2008, 04:35 PM
 
Location: where i belong
414 posts, read 775,084 times
Reputation: 53
It seems very likely to me that I may be misunderstanding (and misunderstood), that's no good reason yet to say what I don't grasp is wrong altogether. I keep being interested (and humble).
Let's be a little less gruff and a little more gentle with one another - CDC is providing a great opportunity for that. Nothing against a heated debate. But we can improve on our manners, IMHO.
Peace and love to all, and enjoy the WE.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-25-2008, 04:40 PM
 
Location: where i belong
414 posts, read 775,084 times
Reputation: 53
Default Your P.S.

Quote:
Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
Certainly not robots, but we are to live, and move, and have our being in Him. Being graphted into the Vine means that our "meat" - our sustenance - is His very body. That's as intimate a description as could be related in the text. We then walk - and grow - just as the fruit from the First Fruit, there is no deviation.




That's of course the "eternal" question of sovereignty - you do consider Him sovereign, right? - but this world has a Master plan. Not to sin would see no need for a Savior; without the sacrifice from Him there is no relationship of the child, the prisoner, the beggar that we are to know THAT kind of love, imo. Our failures are not failures to Him, I am sure of it, for they simply draw us to a deeper reliance on Him.

P.S. Does anyone know if there's a alternate spelling to "graphted"?
grafted, yes.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-25-2008, 05:17 PM
 
Location: hopefully NYC one day :D
411 posts, read 1,161,902 times
Reputation: 195
Quote:
Originally Posted by trejas View Post
Daniel 2:44 says, The Kingdom of God will consume all the other governments of this world. Would it not be wise to be on the winning team?
That's not what my Bible says.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-25-2008, 05:31 PM
 
Location: Ruidoso NM
1,483 posts, read 1,803,259 times
Reputation: 584
Dan 2:44 "In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and {that} kingdom will not be left for another people; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever.

Mat 6:33 "But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top