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Let's all quit trying to wrap our puny human brains around God's omniscient one. There is no way we can grasp his viewpoint on foreknowledge, eternity, predistination and come up with an exact "this is what it means" statement. There is a greatness and vastness to God and his wisdom that at times we are best to sit in awe and reverence and stop trying to mathematically figure him and his will out.
That is what the last couple of pages of arguments boil down to IMHO.
How then is Jesus the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world? (Rev 13:8)
Without doing a little research and reading that passage in context (I've got a million things to do and very little time), I would say that the plan for Jesus to come and act as sacrifice...an equal balancing corresponding sacrifice to Adam...was enacted from the onset.
Whether or not God had forsight and used it or not does not indicate he PREDESTINED...
We seem to be limiting God's ability of forsight. He surely has the ability to see further than Adam and Eve. He surely can see that in this day and age...thousands of years later, there would be millions of people, imperfect people even, who CHOOSE to obey God.
Sure I could. Before I begin, if I know for fact that my 5th flip will result in heads, I can change that before my first flip.
Maybe I'm a little slow, but I can't really understand this logic. If you know for a fact that your 5th flip will result in heads, it will result in heads. Otherwise, your "foreknowledge" wouldn't really mean much... and would actually be more like a "forward projection of results" or "calculation" rather than actual "foreknowledge."
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At least that what's we are assuming if we believe in ultimate foreknowledge.
But in the above example, you are really saying that there is no "ultimate foreknowledge" because God could change something so something won't happen that He has already seen WILL happen. ??
Maybe I'm a little slow, but I can't really understand this logic. If you know for a fact that your 5th flip will result in heads, it will result in heads. Otherwise, your "foreknowledge" wouldn't really mean much... and would actually be more like a "forward projection of results" or "calculation" rather than actual "foreknowledge."
But in the above example, you are really saying that there is no "ultimate foreknowledge" because God could change something so something won't happen that He has already seen WILL happen. ??
EXCELLENT POINT!!! just what i said earlier, our logic can't grasp the bigness of God. Just quit before we all look like the fools we are.....
Quite the opposite; I'm saying that the Fall was part of His plan, the Adversary was/is part of His plan, the questions of our place in this scheme - all is attributed to His ways, which are past finding out. (Rom 11:33)
We must see Him high and lifted up...any thought we have of Him is one of awe, as Saintmarks said. Is it our place to doubt, to fear, or to question the ability of Him in any arena? My default setting is He's God and we're not - Dennis Jernigan's definition of worship.
Quite the opposite; I'm saying that the Fall was part of His plan, the Adversary was/is part of His plan, the questions of our place in this scheme - all is attributed to His ways, which are past finding out. (Rom 11:33)
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Because I believe He will have all men to be saved, I believe He will judge sin and wrong "choosing" but some were created for dishonor, after all.
I agree!
Chapter 9 of Romans speaks to me of God's foreknowledge and predestination. The roles of the twins, for example, were determined by God before they were even born and the choice is attributed to God. God is the One who does the molding and shaping of the vessels, some for honor and some for dishonor, but this does say that God has predetermined individuals for an eternal hell and predetermined others for eternal life. If God is the Savior of all men, He is also the Savior of the vessels made for dishonor according to 1 Timothy 4:10 and many other passages. God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 09-30-2008 at 04:45 PM..
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