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Old 08-10-2009, 06:08 AM
 
Location: The A
1,876 posts, read 2,390,261 times
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The bible clearly teaches that some will be going to the lake of fire to be punished forever..Matt 25:

41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Anyone teaching contrary is antichrist..

matt 5 19

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
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Old 08-10-2009, 07:05 AM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
3,153 posts, read 3,405,284 times
Reputation: 259
Default Correctly translated bibles

Quote:
Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
The bible clearly teaches that some will be going to the lake of fire to be punished forever..Matt 25:

41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Anyone teaching contrary is antichrist..

matt 5 19

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
You will believe whatever the strongest influences on your brain cause you to believe, and so will I.

The following information is the strongest influence on my brain.

Only interpretively translated Bibles "clearly teach" everlasting punishment.
Literally translated Bibles teach universal transformation.

CORRECTLY TRANSLATED BIBLES

One of the important tools for believing that the Bible teaches universal
reconciliation is to use a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible. Here
are several. The ones on line you don't even have to pay for.

CORRECT TRANSLATIONS ONLINE
CONCORDANT About the Concordant Publishing Concern
Concordant Publishing; Concordant Version
YOUNG'S LITERAL Revised Young's Literal Translation (RYLT)

OTHER CORRECT TRANSLATIONS NOT ONLINE LISTED AT THE FOLLOWING THREE LINKS

An Analytical Study of Words - Undivded Version

Hell is Leaving the Bible Forever</b></font>

Bible Translations That Do Not Teach Eternal Torment

Or, if the links don't work, copy and paste into Google any of the following three titles

Bible Translations That Do Not Teach Eternal Torment

Chapter Ten - Bibles Without "Everlasting Punishment"

Hell is leaving the Bible forever

I think the Concordant Literal Translation is the most accurate.

Of the versions not online I like ROTHERHAM'S EMPHASIZED BIBLE the best.

Four scriptural expositions expounding UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION are found at
biblical studies: Torturing Doubts and Exultant Faith
biblical studies: Crucial Questions About Resurrection
Concordant Expositions (html format) - The Eons
Contending For The Faith -- A Response to Don Hewey's "Rebuttal" to Questions Without Answers (http://gtft.org/Library/condon/QuestionsWithoutAnswers.htm - broken link)

Regarding the most common argument that the same word for "punishment" is also used for "life" see the following:
Matthew 25:46 - “Aionian” or “Eternal”
All three of these articles should be studied with care, especially the third one.
biblical studies: Eon As Indefinite Duration, Part One
biblical studies: Eon As Indefinte Duration, Part Two
biblical studies: Eon As Indefinte Duration, Part Three
also see:
biblical studies: The Greek Word Aiõn
biblical studies: SCRIPTURE TRANSLATION PRINCIPLES

Last edited by rodgertutt; 08-10-2009 at 07:14 AM.. Reason: spacing
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Old 08-10-2009, 08:54 AM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
3,153 posts, read 3,405,284 times
Reputation: 259
Default aionion NEVER means everlasting

aionion NEVER means everlasting

No two words in the history of man have been so torturing as aion and aionion. No two words in the history of man, mishandled by man, have contributed more to the physical, emotional and spiritual harm of so many, than these. You may think I must be exaggerating. But I am not. It is the mistranslation of these two words that has foisted the false and destructive doctrine of eternal torment upon the church and the world.

Mistranslation of the Greek words "aion" and “aionion” is a master stroke of diabolical genius. No other words erroneously translated, could more effectively pervert man’s image of God and cause such widespread confusion. The following work by Joseph E. Kirk is offered in the hope that the serious seeker after scriptural truth will be aided in their quest.
CHART OF GOD’S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.

Also see
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
An Analytical Study of Words
(especially note the quotes by the many Greek scholars in chapters three and twelve)

Also see
TIME AND ETERNITY A BIBLICAL STUDY
TIME AND ETERNITY: A Biblical Study
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Old 08-10-2009, 10:06 AM
 
Location: The A
1,876 posts, read 2,390,261 times
Reputation: 48
Folks it doesnt matter how false teachers argue about words, Jesus says this about the duration of punishment..

Matt 25:

46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
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Old 08-10-2009, 10:26 AM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
3,153 posts, read 3,405,284 times
Reputation: 259
Default aionios NEVER means everlsating

Quote:
Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
Folks it doesnt matter how false teachers argue about words, Jesus says this about the duration of punishment..

Matt 25:

46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
And folks here is the truth about that.

AIONIOS NEVER MEANS EVERLASTING

For aionios, or any combination thereof, to mean "eternal" its noun form MUST mean eternal. It doesn’t. It is impossible for the adjective aionios to mean eternal. Aionios is an adjective. Just as the function of "American" (adj.) is to inform us of that which pertains to America (it is never greater than "America") thus also the function of "aionios" (adj) is to inform us of that which pertains to the eon(s). It is never greater than the eons. No aion is eternal. Therefore it is impossible for that which pertains to the eons to be eternal. See
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.

A common argument is that the subject matter changes aion from meaning a long period of time to eternal. This is simply not true.
There are many places in the Bible where the translation of aion as eternal or everlasting makes no sense at all. But there are no places in the Bible where the translation of aion as a limited period of time does not make perfect sense.
Comparative Concordance of how the Greek words aion and aionios are translated in various Bible translations

TWO COMMON QUESTIONS

QUESTION ONE:
If aionion NEVER means eternal, won’t the life of God come to an end?

ANSWER:
Of course God is eternal, but that is not what the use of the word aionios is saying about Him. God is the God of the eons.
• THE EONS HAVE A BEGINNING
Literal Translation versus / King James Version

Heb.1:2 God made the eons / God made the worlds
I Cor. 2:7 before the eons / before the world
2Tim.1:9 before eonian times / before the world began
• THE EONS END, INDIVIDUALLY AND COLLECTIVELY
Heb. 9:26 the end of the eons / the end of the world
1 Cor. 10:11 the ends of the eons / the ends of the world
Matt. 24:3 the end of the eon / the end of the world
• HOW MANY EONS ARE THERE?
Col.1:26 hid from eons Past / hid from ages
Lu. 20:34 this eon Present / this world
Eph. 2:7 eons to come Future / ages to come
A minimum of five eons indicated
• THE PURPOSE OF THE EONS
• Eph.3:8-11 purpose of the eons / eternal purpose
Eph. 1:9-1l; PhiI.2:9-l1; Col.1:l5-21; I Cor. 15:20-28

QUESTION TWO:
If aionion NEVER means eternal, won’t the life of the believer come to an end since the word is applied to both the life of the believer, and the punishment of the non-believer?

ANSWER:
While the believer is enjoying aionion life, the unbeliever will experience kolasis aionion Matthew 25:46 (which means age-during corrective chastisement).
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter11.html

Believers do receive aionion life. But if this is all that God promised, there would be no assurance of life beyond the eons. However, at the end of the eons God abolishes death from His universe (I Cor. 15:26). This is accomplished by imparting the resurrection life of Christ to all who have not previously received it. Aionion life assures one of life up to that point. Beyond that, death is impossible. Furthermore believers are made immortal when the Lord returns (I Cor. 15:50-57). When one has been made immortal, death is impossible.

CHART OF GOD’S PLAN FOR THE AGES
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.

Also see
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS An Analytical Study of Words (especially see the quotes from the many Greek scholars in chapters three and twelve)

Also see
TIME AND ETERNITY (OLAM and AIONIOS) STEVENSON
TIME AND ETERNITY: A Biblical Study

There is a Greek word that Young translates eternal and that is "aidios" as in Romans 1:20, “eternal power and Godhead.” It can mean eternal unless it is limited by a qualifying phrase.
See Young’s literal translation of the Bible.
It compares with the Hebrew word qedem in Deut. 33:27 which should read
“The eternal (qedem) God is my refuge, and underneath are the age-during (olam) arms. (see Young's literal translation)
The Hebrew word olam compares with the Greek word aionios.
Both of them refer to a limited period of time.

The word aidios (not aionios) was in universal use among the Greek Jews of our Savior's day, to convey the idea of eternal duration, and was used by them to teach endless punishment. Here is the proof
HISTORY OF OPINIONS
and
The Origin and History of the Doctrine of Endless Punishment
and
Chapter 3 - Origin of Endless Punishment

Jesus never allowed himself to use it in connection with punishment, nor did any of his disciples but one, and he but once, and then carefully and expressly limited its meaning. Can demonstration go further than this to show that Jesus carefully avoided the phraseology by which his contemporaries described the doctrine of endless punishment? He never adopted the language of his day on this subject. Their language was aidios timoria, endless torment. His language was aionion kolasin, age-lasting correction. They described unending ruin, He, discipline, resulting in reformation.

If Jesus had wanted to convey the idea of “eternal” He would have used aidios, which was understood to mean eternal by Jesus' contemporaries.
The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.

Regarding the most common argument that the same word for "punishment" is also used for "life" also see the following:
Matthew 25:46 - “Aionian” or “Eternal”
and
All three of these articles should be studied with care, especially the third one.
biblical studies: Eon As Indefinite Duration, Part One
biblical studies: Eon As Indefinte Duration, Part Two
biblical studies: Eon As Indefinte Duration, Part Three
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Old 08-10-2009, 10:43 AM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
3,153 posts, read 3,405,284 times
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ADDITIONAL COMMENTARY
AIÓN – AIÓNIOS
AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS
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Old 08-10-2009, 11:03 AM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
3,153 posts, read 3,405,284 times
Reputation: 259
Default Stalemate

As nearly always happens the argument about “eternal hell” gets bogged down in a stalemate with both sides saying "The Greek scholars that I rely on are more dependable than your Greek scholars."

I choose the Greek scholars that IMO best glorify the character of God as I perceive Him in a literally translated Bible.

Personally, I believe that the doctrine that God will sustain anyone alive in a state of inescapable eternal suffering is the greatest of all blasphemies that can be directed against the character of God!
The ET doctrine does not show that God is "so great" as Calvinists claim. Instead it portrays God as a sadistic tyrant.

The findings of Greek scholar Louis Abbott and the many other Greek scholars quoted in chapters three and twelve of his online book IMO renders all other arguments about this subject irrelevant.

IMO these findings effectively close the case on the arguments that eternal tormentors try so hard to uphold.
But of course one has to actually read them to see what I mean.

Just click on
An Analytical Study of Words
and enjoy
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Old 08-10-2009, 11:24 AM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
3,153 posts, read 3,405,284 times
Reputation: 259
Default The UR "trump card" trumps the ET trump card every time

The UR "trump card" trumps the ET trump card every time.
The UR trump card is what we URs see in the Bible and it is this.
"GOD HAS THE DESIRE, AND THE ABILITY, AND THE DETERMINATION, TO EVENTUALLY SAVE ALL FALLEN CREATURES FROM EVERYTHING FROM WHICH THEY NEED TO BE SAVED, INCLUDING THEIR STUBBORN WILLS, first the firstfruits of election, then all the rest too.
God's Plan Of The Ages; The Purpose Of God In This Age; Redemption In Two Parts; As In Adam - So In Christ; Every Man In His Own Order; All Things In Subjection; God All In All

A time is coming when both the Calvinists and Satanists will marvel with hearts full of love for God at just how gloriously He has achieved universal transformation through what Christ accomplished by his death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of his cross. Then the "game" of the ages will be over, and God will have won every heart.
The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.

What Jesus really taught about "hell."
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/je...ingonhell.html

The issue is not the reality of the lake of fire which is the second death.
The issue is its duration and purpose.
The Lake of Fire: The Prodigal Son; God Gains Attention;The Lake Of Fire;The Second Death;Not Hurt Of The Second Death;Tormented In The Presence Of The Lamb

A historical examination of how false teachers of the past corrupted the Word of God.

How Eternity Slipped Into Christian Theology
Whence Eternity? How Eternity Slipped In by Alexander Thomson

No two words in the history of man have been so torturing as aion and aionion. No two words in the history of man, mishandled by man, have contributed more to the physical, emotional and spiritual harm of so many, than these. You may think I must be exaggerating. But I am not. It is the mistranslation of these two words that has foisted the false and destructive doctrine of eternal torment upon the church and the world.

Mistranslation of the Greek words "aion" and “aionion” is a master stroke of diabolical genius. No other words erroneously translated, could more effectively pervert man’s image of God and cause such widespread confusion. The following work by Joseph E. Kirk is offered in the hope that the serious seeker after scriptural truth will be aided in their quest.
CHART OF GOD’S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.

Also see
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
An Analytical Study of Words
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Old 08-10-2009, 01:00 PM
 
Location: The A
1,876 posts, read 2,390,261 times
Reputation: 48
There are as Jesus predicted, false christ, and false prophets and shall[ promise] decieve many

matt 24

11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Just as those shalls came to pass..so shall this one..

Matt 25:

41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
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Old 08-10-2009, 01:25 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
3,153 posts, read 3,405,284 times
Reputation: 259
Default aionios NEVER means everlasting

Quote:
Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
There are as Jesus predicted, false christ, and false prophets and shall[ promise] decieve many

matt 24

11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Just as those shalls came to pass..so shall this one..

Matt 25:

41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
And folks this evidence shows that beloved 57 is one of the false prophets spoken of on his post.

AIONIOS NEVER MEANS EVERLASTING

For aionios, or any combination thereof, to mean "eternal" its noun form MUST mean eternal. It doesn’t. It is impossible for the adjective aionios to mean eternal. Aionios is an adjective. Just as the function of "American" (adj.) is to inform us of that which pertains to America (it is never greater than "America") thus also the function of "aionios" (adj) is to inform us of that which pertains to the eon(s). It is never greater than the eons. No aion is eternal. Therefore it is impossible for that which pertains to the eons to be eternal. See
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.

A common argument is that the subject matter changes aion from meaning a long period of time to eternal. This is simply not true.
There are many places in the Bible where the translation of aion as eternal or everlasting makes no sense at all. But there are no places in the Bible where the translation of aion as a limited period of time does not make perfect sense.
Comparative Concordance of how the Greek words aion and aionios are translated in various Bible translations

TWO COMMON QUESTIONS

QUESTION ONE:
If aionion NEVER means eternal, won’t the life of God come to an end?

ANSWER:
Of course God is eternal, but that is not what the use of the word aionios is saying about Him. God is the God of the eons.
• THE EONS HAVE A BEGINNING
Literal Translation versus / King James Version

Heb.1:2 God made the eons / God made the worlds
I Cor. 2:7 before the eons / before the world
2Tim.1:9 before eonian times / before the world began
• THE EONS END, INDIVIDUALLY AND COLLECTIVELY
Heb. 9:26 the end of the eons / the end of the world
1 Cor. 10:11 the ends of the eons / the ends of the world
Matt. 24:3 the end of the eon / the end of the world
• HOW MANY EONS ARE THERE?
Col.1:26 hid from eons Past / hid from ages
Lu. 20:34 this eon Present / this world
Eph. 2:7 eons to come Future / ages to come
A minimum of five eons indicated
• THE PURPOSE OF THE EONS
• Eph.3:8-11 purpose of the eons / eternal purpose
Eph. 1:9-1l; PhiI.2:9-l1; Col.1:l5-21; I Cor. 15:20-28

QUESTION TWO:
If aionion NEVER means eternal, won’t the life of the believer come to an end since the word is applied to both the life of the believer, and the punishment of the non-believer?

ANSWER:
While the believer is enjoying aionion life, the unbeliever will experience kolasis aionion Matthew 25:46 (which means age-during corrective chastisement).
Chapter Eleven

Believers do receive aionion life. But if this is all that God promised, there would be no assurance of life beyond the eons. However, at the end of the eons God abolishes death from His universe (I Cor. 15:26). This is accomplished by imparting the resurrection life of Christ to all who have not previously received it. Aionion life assures one of life up to that point. Beyond that, death is impossible. Furthermore believers are made immortal when the Lord returns (I Cor. 15:50-57). When one has been made immortal, death is impossible.

CHART OF GOD’S PLAN FOR THE AGES
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.

Also see
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS An Analytical Study of Words (especially see the quotes from the many Greek scholars in chapters three and twelve)

Also see
TIME AND ETERNITY (OLAM and AIONIOS) STEVENSON
TIME AND ETERNITY: A Biblical Study

There is a Greek word that Young translates eternal and that is "aidios" as in Romans 1:20, “eternal power and Godhead.” It can mean eternal unless it is limited by a qualifying phrase.
See Young’s literal translation of the Bible.
It compares with the Hebrew word qedem in Deut. 33:27 which should read
“The eternal (qedem) God is my refuge, and underneath are the age-during (olam) arms. (see Young's literal translation)
The Hebrew word olam compares with the Greek word aionios.
Both of them refer to a limited period of time.

The word aidios (not aionios) was in universal use among the Greek Jews of our Savior's day, to convey the idea of eternal duration, and was used by them to teach endless punishment. Here is the proof
HISTORY OF OPINIONS
and
The Origin and History of the Doctrine of Endless Punishment
and
Chapter 3 - Origin of Endless Punishment

Jesus never allowed himself to use it in connection with punishment, nor did any of his disciples but one, and he but once, and then carefully and expressly limited its meaning. Can demonstration go further than this to show that Jesus carefully avoided the phraseology by which his contemporaries described the doctrine of endless punishment? He never adopted the language of his day on this subject. Their language was aidios timoria, endless torment. His language was aionion kolasin, age-lasting correction. They described unending ruin, He, discipline, resulting in reformation.

If Jesus had wanted to convey the idea of “eternal” He would have used aidios, which was understood to mean eternal by Jesus' contemporaries.
The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.

Regarding the most common argument that the same word for "punishment" is also used for "life" also see the following:
Matthew 25:46 - “Aionian” or “Eternal”
and
All three of these articles should be studied with care, especially the third one.
biblical studies: Eon As Indefinite Duration, Part One
biblical studies: Eon As Indefinte Duration, Part Two
biblical studies: Eon As Indefinte Duration, Part Three
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