What About Hell? (testimony, Matthew, history, faith)

[JamesMRohde]

Solomon said, "The day of death is better than the day of birth." And what of our birth?

"We were born into other men's homes,
victims of their sins,
raised in their schools of thought,
and subjected to their gods.
We are like a child,
pregnant from rape
who has never known
the caress of a true love.
Until we get beyond all this
we can't even find the starting line."

---James M. Rohde

The Holy Scripture never says that death determines destiny, rather it is determined by God Who cannot die. It does not anywhere have anything written saying God loves you until you die.

Something Jesus said was, "who believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live." (in John 11:25-26) Don't add words to explain away what He said. Meditate on it. In that place He also indicated victory over death by going on to say, "And, everyone living and believing into Me, should by no means be dying into the eon. Are you believing this?"

After Jesus died on the cross Peter says He preached to the spirits in prison that had been disobedient in the days of Noah. "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient (no longer disobedient means their prison was working), when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water." (1 Pet 3:18-20) It is definitely taught by God's own word that: "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." (1 Pet 4:6)

In the book of Jonah in the Bible it says after Jonah died and went to hell he prayed and God saved him. Men made up the idea that God loves you until you die. The gospel is "Christ died for our sins" and the Bible did not add "so we could have a chance to accept Him." That others would benefit from faith in the gospel we do what we can to get them to believe. (cf., 2 Cor 5:18-20 KJV)

The verse fragment, "...it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment..." (Heb 9:27, KJV) people use to supposedly back up the idea that once you die it's too late to come to faith. Whatever it means, it certainly does not in any way say such a thing and it doesn't seem possible to make it even infer it. This passage is in the midst of the following larger quote giving it a context: "...yet now, once, at the conclusion of the eons, for the repudiation of sin through His sacrifice, is He manifest. And, in as much as it is reserved to the men to be dying once, yet after this a judging, thus Christ also, being offered once for the bearing of the sins of many, will be seen a second time, by those awaiting Him, apart from sin, for salvation, through faith." (Heb 9:26B-28, Concordant Literal Version) In the context, which I quoted, Christ is presented as our judgment for sin.

An interesting cross reference here is, "For he that is dead is freed from sin." (Rom 6:7 KJV) The word "freed" isn't in the original. It has "justified," which means to be declared right as a result of a judicial investigation. The judgment for sin according to the Bible is death. This corresponds with rendering Heb 9:27, "With this the judgment..." which may be justified by pointing out the Greek word meta in this phrase is translated with 346 times compared to after only 95 times by the Authorized Version. However, not being followed by the genitive, it is possibly more literal with the accusative to render it as after.

Salvation is from the law of both sin and death by the higher law of life in Christ producing both righteousness and victory over death. "...for the spirit's law of life in Christ Jesus frees you from the law of sin and death. " (Rom 8:2, CLV) Salvation is partaking of the Divine nature, being conformed to the image and likeness of God, spirit, soul and body, not a better location in death, however true that may be too. Nothing in the Bible says God's saving work is limited to this life, or that it ceases when somebody dies. All it takes to prove this wrong is to quote a verse that says something like that. We ought to meditate on what is instead written that is clear and easy to understand:

"For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." 1 Peter 4:6 KJV

[rodgertutt]

Originally Posted by jamesmrohde

solomon said, "the day of death is better than the day of birth." and what of our birth?

"we were born into other men's homes,
victims of their sins,
raised in their schools of thought,
and subjected to their gods.
We are like a child,
pregnant from rape
who has never known
the caress of a true love.
Until we get beyond all this
we can't even find the starting line."

---james m. Rohde

the holy scripture never says that death determines destiny, rather it is determined by god who cannot die. It does not anywhere have anything written saying god loves you until you die.

Something jesus said was, "who believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live." (in john 11:25-26) don't add words to explain away what he said. Meditate on it. In that place he also indicated victory over death by going on to say, "and, everyone living and believing into me, should by no means be dying into the eon. Are you believing this?"

after jesus died on the cross peter says he preached to the spirits in prison that had been disobedient in the days of noah. "for christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to god, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; which sometime were disobedient (no longer disobedient means their prison was working), when once the longsuffering of god waited in the days of noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water." (1 pet 3:18-20) it is definitely taught by god's own word that: "for for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to god in the spirit." (1 pet 4:6)

in the book of jonah in the bible it says after jonah died and went to hell he prayed and god saved him. Men made up the idea that god loves you until you die. The gospel is "christ died for our sins" and the bible did not add "so we could have a chance to accept him." that others would benefit from faith in the gospel we do what we can to get them to believe. (cf., 2 cor 5:18-20 kjv)

the verse fragment, "...it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment..." (heb 9:27, kjv) people use to supposedly back up the idea that once you die it's too late to come to faith. Whatever it means, it certainly does not in any way say such a thing and it doesn't seem possible to make it even infer it. This passage is in the midst of the following larger quote giving it a context: "...yet now, once, at the conclusion of the eons, for the repudiation of sin through his sacrifice, is he manifest. And, in as much as it is reserved to the men to be dying once, yet after this a judging, thus christ also, being offered once for the bearing of the sins of many, will be seen a second time, by those awaiting him, apart from sin, for salvation, through faith." (heb 9:26b-28, concordant literal version) in the context, which i quoted, christ is presented as our judgment for sin.

An interesting cross reference here is, "for he that is dead is freed from sin." (rom 6:7 kjv) the word "freed" isn't in the original. It has "justified," which means to be declared right as a result of a judicial investigation. The judgment for sin according to the bible is death. This corresponds with rendering heb 9:27, "with this the judgment..." which may be justified by pointing out the greek word meta in this phrase is translated with 346 times compared to after only 95 times by the authorized version. However, not being followed by the genitive, it is possibly more literal with the accusative to render it as after.

Salvation is from the law of both sin and death by the higher law of life in christ producing both righteousness and victory over death. "...for the spirit's law of life in christ jesus frees you from the law of sin and death. " (rom 8:2, clv) salvation is partaking of the divine nature, being conformed to the image and likeness of god, spirit, soul and body, not a better location in death, however true that may be too. Nothing in the bible says god's saving work is limited to this life, or that it ceases when somebody dies. All it takes to prove this wrong is to quote a verse that says something like that. We ought to meditate on what is instead written that is clear and easy to understand:

"for for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to god in the spirit." 1 peter 4:6 kjv

Thanks for the great post James. I like it so much I put it into a document and will quote you from time to time. Thanks again!

[little elmer]

Originally Posted by JamesMRohde

An interesting cross reference here is, "For he that is dead is freed from sin." (Rom 6:7 KJV) The word "freed" isn't in the original. It has "justified," which means to be declared right as a result of a judicial investigation. The judgment for sin according to the Bible is death. This corresponds with rendering Heb 9:27, "With this the judgment..." which may be justified by pointing out the Greek word meta in this phrase is translated with 346 times compared to after only 95 times by the Authorized Version. However, not being followed by the genitive, it is possibly more literal with the accusative to render it as after.

Right.

Christians have a hard time with this point, but it's important to know that there will be a reckoning for every man's work (1 Cor 3:13). There is a point where our flesh will be dealt with - along with the carnal mind -because it cannot enter. The grave however is not - nor ever has been - a barrier to Him. The flesh will be done away with, in due time.

[rodgertutt]

Originally Posted by little elmer

Right.

Christians have a hard time with this point, but it's important to know that there will be a reckoning for every man's work (1 Cor 3:13). There is a point where our flesh will be dealt with - along with the carnal mind -because it cannot enter. The grave however is not - nor ever has been - a barrier to Him. The flesh will be done away with, in due time.

Good additional thought. Thanks Elmer!

[meerkat2]

Originally Posted by little elmer

Right.

Christians have a hard time with this point, but it's important to know that there will be a reckoning for every man's work (1 Cor 3:13). There is a point where our flesh will be dealt with - along with the carnal mind -because it cannot enter. The grave however is not - nor ever has been - a barrier to Him. The flesh will be done away with, in due time.

Yes, I agree.

[ShanaBrown]

"We were born into other men's homes,
victims of their sins,
raised in their schools of thought,
and subjected to their gods.
We are like a child,
pregnant from rape
who has never known
the caress of a true love.
Until we get beyond all this
we can't even find the starting line."

Thanks for sharing, James. God bless.

[JamesMRohde]

Sorry, even though I wrote it I reversed the proper order of two of the phrases. Here it is righted:

"We were born into other men's homes,
raised in their schools of thought,
victims of their sins,
and subjected to their gods.
We are like a child,
pregnant from rape
who has never known
the caress of a true love.
Until we get beyond all this
we can't even find the starting line."

---James Rohde

Not everything that I write is of the same degree of value. This comes from wounds unto death. It's difficult to just give away something so precious as these few words that God gave to me. Ah well, didn't Jesus say, "Freely ye have received, so freely give."

[little elmer]

Originally Posted by JamesMRohde

Until we get beyond all this
we can't even find the starting line."

---James Rohde

This is in keeping with what I've found to be true: God has to empty us before we can be filled, and this includes the doctrines of men - we hold so tightly to "truth", only to find that He alone is the Way, the Truth and the Life in times of shaking. There is no answer to some of life's swords, except to know that He is the I AM. That knowledge envelopes all else.

[rodgertutt]

ANYONE IS WELCOME TO BELIEVE ANYTHING THEY WANT TO ABOUT WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES

I posted on your forum in case there was a member or surfer or lurker who might benefit from the same info that was such a help to me.

IMHO It is totally insane to think that anyone will PREFER to suffer forever rather than eventually reach out for the salvation that Jesus has provided for all by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross.
This was the thinking that caused my twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78 (I'm 70 now)

I was SO GLAD to learn about the following information.

THE FOLLOWING HAS, AND ALWAYS WILL BE TRUE REGARDING THE DEBATE ABOUT ETERNAL TORMENT

The argument about “eternal hell” nearly always ends with the words, “My Greek scholars are more reliable than your Greek scholars,” and the result is nearly always a stalemate.
My Greek scholars are Louis Abbott and the many Greek scholars he quotes in chapters three and twelve. Copy and paste into Google
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS

If you think it glorifies God more to let some of His creatures suffer forever, or annihilate them, then you keep believing that.

But if you think it glorifies God more to eventually meet everyone on the level of their greatest and deepest need which is a change in their stubborn will, then know that there is plenty of evidence in the Bible that that is exactly what God is like.

ON THE BASIS OF HAVING STUDIED THE EVIDENCE AVAILABLE TO YOU CHOOSE ONE

Choose to believe that the Bible teaches that God will sustain people alive in an inescapable state of eternal suffering.
Or
Choose to believe that God will annihilate (cause them to cease to exist) anyone who does not become a Christian before they die.
Or
Choose to believe what the following expositors reveal about what the Bible teaches.
Copy and paste into Google
THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES
Or
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
Or
UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
Or
ETERNAL DEATH ANNIHILATION?
Or
Just What Do You Mean By The Word DESTRUCTION?

I myself, along with many others with whom I am acquainted, simply cannot love a god who would let anyone choose themselves into an inescapable state of eternal suffering (Arminian), or suffer forever just because they were born into the human race (Calvinist). Neither can we love a god who would snuff us out of existence just because we didn’t hear about Jesus before we died.

But we CAN love a god Who, because of His Son’s death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross, will sooner or later save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved. That’s the God that the above expositors see in the Bible.
And that’s the God to Whom I joyously yield my heart in complete and total abandonment.

SO FOR US THE CHOICE IS EASY

How I recovered from a 12 year nervous breakdown 1966-78
I’m 70 years old now

I could have avoided a horrific twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78 had I known as a youth about the following information concerning what a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible teaches.

BOOKS THAT SHOW THAT THE BIBLE TEACHES UNIVERSAL SALVATION
THE ENTIRE CONTENTS OF WHICH CAN BE READ ONLINE

Copy and paste into Google any of the following titles.

0. ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST – Charles Slagle
1. HOPE BEYOND HELL - Gerry Beauchemin
(recently published)
2. CHRIST TRIUMPHANT - Thomas Allin
3. THE BIBLE HELL - J.W. Hanson
4. THE ORIGIN AND HISTORY OF THE DOCTRINE OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT – Thomas Thayer
5. THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE – Dr. Loyal Hurley
6. JUST WHAT DO YOU MEAN "HELL" - J. Preston Eby
7. ONE HUNDRED SCRIPTURAL PROOFS THAT JESUS CHRIST WILL SAVE ALL MANKIND - Thomas Whittemore
8. TWENTY-FOUR SERMONS ON UNIVERSAL SALVATION – John Bovee Dods
9. THE SECOND DEATH AND THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – Andrew Jukes
10. ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY REASONS FOR BELIEVING IN THE FINAL SALVATION OF ALL MANKIND – Erasmus Manford
11. THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS – J. Patching
12. BIBLE TRANSLATIONS THAT DO NOT TEACH ETERNAL TORMENT – Gary Amirault
13. AION – AIONIOS – John Wesley Hanson
14. BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED – John Wesley Hanson
15. THE CASE OF JUDAS, ETCETERA
16. THE PROBLEM OF EVIL – John Essex
AND THE ROLE OF THE ADVERSARY – James Webb
17. HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE – James Coram
18. THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – Andrew jukes
19. THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – George Hawtin
20. THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES - Eby

[rodgertutt]

Originally Posted by rodgertutt

ANYONE IS WELCOME TO BELIEVE ANYTHING THEY WANT TO ABOUT WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES

I posted on your forum in case there was a member or surfer or lurker who might benefit from the same info that was such a help to me.

IMHO It is totally insane to think that anyone will PREFER to suffer forever rather than eventually reach out for the salvation that Jesus has provided for all by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross.
This was the thinking that caused my twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78 (I'm 70 now)

I was SO GLAD to learn about the following information.

THE FOLLOWING HAS, AND ALWAYS WILL BE TRUE REGARDING THE DEBATE ABOUT ETERNAL TORMENT

The argument about “eternal hell” nearly always ends with the words, “My Greek scholars are more reliable than your Greek scholars,” and the result is nearly always a stalemate.
My Greek scholars are Louis Abbott and the many Greek scholars he quotes in chapters three and twelve. Copy and paste into Google
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS

If you think it glorifies God more to let some of His creatures suffer forever, or annihilate them, then you keep believing that.

But if you think it glorifies God more to eventually meet everyone on the level of their greatest and deepest need which is a change in their stubborn will, then know that there is plenty of evidence in the Bible that that is exactly what God is like.

ON THE BASIS OF HAVING STUDIED THE EVIDENCE AVAILABLE TO YOU CHOOSE ONE

Choose to believe that the Bible teaches that God will sustain people alive in an inescapable state of eternal suffering.
Or
Choose to believe that God will annihilate (cause them to cease to exist) anyone who does not become a Christian before they die.
Or
Choose to believe what the following expositors reveal about what the Bible teaches.
Copy and paste into Google
THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES
Or
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
Or
UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
Or
ETERNAL DEATH ANNIHILATION?
Or
Just What Do You Mean By The Word DESTRUCTION?

I myself, along with many others with whom I am acquainted, simply cannot love a god who would let anyone choose themselves into an inescapable state of eternal suffering (Arminian), or suffer forever just because they were born into the human race (Calvinist). Neither can we love a god who would snuff us out of existence just because we didn’t hear about Jesus before we died.

But we CAN love a god Who, because of His Son’s death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross, will sooner or later save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved, including their stubbon will. That’s the God that the above expositors see in the Bible.
And that’s the God to Whom I joyously yield my heart in complete and total abandonment.

SO FOR US THE CHOICE IS EASY

How I recovered from a 12 year nervous breakdown 1966-78
I’m 70 years old now

I could have avoided a horrific twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78 had I known as a youth about the following information concerning what a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible teaches.

BOOKS THAT SHOW THAT THE BIBLE TEACHES UNIVERSAL SALVATION
THE ENTIRE CONTENTS OF WHICH CAN BE READ ONLINE

Copy and paste into Google any of the following titles.

0. ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST – Charles Slagle
1. HOPE BEYOND HELL - Gerry Beauchemin
(recently published)
2. CHRIST TRIUMPHANT - Thomas Allin
3. THE BIBLE HELL - J.W. Hanson
4. THE ORIGIN AND HISTORY OF THE DOCTRINE OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT – Thomas Thayer
5. THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE – Dr. Loyal Hurley
6. JUST WHAT DO YOU MEAN "HELL" - J. Preston Eby
7. ONE HUNDRED SCRIPTURAL PROOFS THAT JESUS CHRIST WILL SAVE ALL MANKIND - Thomas Whittemore
8. TWENTY-FOUR SERMONS ON UNIVERSAL SALVATION – John Bovee Dods
9. THE SECOND DEATH AND THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – Andrew Jukes
10. ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY REASONS FOR BELIEVING IN THE FINAL SALVATION OF ALL MANKIND – Erasmus Manford
11. THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS – J. Patching
12. BIBLE TRANSLATIONS THAT DO NOT TEACH ETERNAL TORMENT – Gary Amirault
13. AION – AIONIOS – John Wesley Hanson
14. BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED – John Wesley Hanson
15. THE CASE OF JUDAS, ETCETERA
16. THE PROBLEM OF EVIL – John Essex
AND THE ROLE OF THE ADVERSARY – James Webb
17. HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE – James Coram
18. THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – Andrew jukes
19. THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – George Hawtin
20. THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES - Eby

SOME INFORMATION THAT WAS VERY HELPFUL TO ME

No two words in the history of man have been so torturing as aion and aionion. No two words in the history of man, mishandled by man, have contributed more to the physical, emotional and spiritual harm of so many, than these. You may think I must be exaggerating. But I am not. It is the mistranslation of these two words that has foisted the false and destructive doctrine of eternal torment upon the church and the world.

Mistranslation of the Greek words "aion" and “aionion” is a master stroke of diabolical genius. No other words erroneously translated, could more effectively pervert man’s image of God and cause such widespread confusion. The following work by Joseph E. Kirk is offered in the hope that the serious seeker after scriptural truth will be aided in their quest.

copy and paste into Google
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE

and

AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
(especially note the quotes by the many Greek scholars in chapters three and twelve)

and

TIME AND ETERNITY A BIBLICAL STUDY