What About Hell? (messages, testimonies, baptized, point of view)

[beloved57]

The idea that one can find salvation only during this life time is an unscriptural myth.

What verse says that ?

The knowledge of sins forgiven is while one is on earth.. matt 9:

But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

mark 2:

But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)

if not brought to believe on christ while your on earth, then you simply die in your sins..jn 8:

I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

[rodgertutt]

Originally Posted by beloved57

What verse says that ?

The knowledge of sins forgiven is while one is on earth.. matt 9:

But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

mark 2:

But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)

if not brought to believe on christ while your on earth, then you simply die in your sins..jn 8:

I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Everyone who dies in their sins without Jesus will receive the appropriate amount of kolasis aionion which means age-during corrective chastisement and then, according to the Bible, they ALL will be saved too.
God Will Have All Men Be Saved

People who want to keep believing in eternal torment for people who die without Jesus will not read that article.

Regarding the most common argument that the same word for "punishment" is also used for "life" see the following:
Matthew 25:46 - “Aionian” or “Eternal”

[rodgertutt]

A PHONE CONVERSATION WITH A MUSLIM MISSIONARY

A Muslim missionary called me on my ministry phone in response to my newspaper ad “HELL IS NOT ENDLESS.”
(I have sent out many hundreds of packets of literature to people who responded to these ads that I have put in two of Toronto’s largest newspapers since 1981.)

The Muslim missionary said “Unless you convert to Islam you WILL go to hell.”
I said, “That’s what some Christians say if I don’t convert to Christianity.”
He said, “But the difference is that Islam has the truth.”
I said, “That’s what some Christians say about their beliefs.”
He said, “After you die you will learn that the Koran is the word of God and Islam has the truth.”
I said, “I guess I’ll just have to wait until then to find out for sure.”
He said, “But it will be too late for you then.”
I laughed and said, “That’s exactly what some Christians say.”
I don’t think he thought it was funny.

I then expected him to say what a Mormon missionary said to me in Montreal. “At the judgment, as you are being cast into hell, I will point my finger at you and say, ‘I told you so. I gave you a chance but you didn’t take it and now it’s too late’.”

It seems that we are supposed to believe that millions of Muslims, by sheer “accident” of birth, are born into a belief system that teaches their children that even to consider Christianity to be the truth will land them in an eternity of suffering in hell.

I believe that the horrific false doctrine of endless suffering in hell causes more suffering here on earth than any other idea that people believe. That is why it gives me such great pleasure to offer people the urls that contain evidence that the Bible does not support such a concept of God.

Just Google up TENTMAKER and use the search engine at the top of the front page. Type in a key word from any argument or Bible verse and ten articles will appear refuting the idea that the Bible teaches eternal torment or annihilation. Then click to the next page and ten more articles will appear, and so on and so on for many pages. Or click on
Jesus saves all mankind, the truly Good News, Christian universalism--Ultimate Reconcilation--Doctrine of Inclusion--Restitution of all--Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ, Gospel of the Bible

Also Google up
THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES
or
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
Or
UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
to find A LOT of scriptural evidence that God has both the ability and the intention to eventually save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved.

[rodgertutt]

CHART OF GOD’S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME

No two words in the history of man have been so torturing as aion and aionion. No two words in the history of man, mishandled by man, have contributed more to the physical, emotional and spiritual harm of so many, than these. You may think I must be exaggerating. But I am not. It is the mistranslation of these two words that has foisted the false and destructive doctrine of eternal torment upon the church and the world.

Mistranslation of the Greek words "aion" and “aionion” is a master stroke of diabolical genius. No other words erroneously translated, could more effectively pervert man’s image of God and cause such widespread confusion. The following work by Joseph E. Kirk is offered in the hope that the serious seeker after scriptural truth will be aided in their quest.
CHART OF GOD’S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.

Also see
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
An Analytical Study of Words
(especially note the quotes by the many Greek scholars in chapters three and twelve)

Also see
TIME AND ETERNITY A BIBLICAL STUDY
TIME AND ETERNITY: A Biblical Study

[rodgertutt]

Originally Posted by rodgertutt

CHART OF GOD’S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME

No two words in the history of man have been so torturing as aion and aionion. No two words in the history of man, mishandled by man, have contributed more to the physical, emotional and spiritual harm of so many, than these. You may think I must be exaggerating. But I am not. It is the mistranslation of these two words that has foisted the false and destructive doctrine of eternal torment upon the church and the world.

Mistranslation of the Greek words "aion" and “aionion” is a master stroke of diabolical genius. No other words erroneously translated, could more effectively pervert man’s image of God and cause such widespread confusion. The following work by Joseph E. Kirk is offered in the hope that the serious seeker after scriptural truth will be aided in their quest.
CHART OF GOD’S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.

Also see
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
An Analytical Study of Words
(especially note the quotes by the many Greek scholars in chapters three and twelve)

Also see
TIME AND ETERNITY A BIBLICAL STUDY
TIME AND ETERNITY: A Biblical Study

Abraham Lincoln said to the eternal torment evangelist
“Your god is my devil.”

WHAT GOD’S LOVE IS REALLY LIKE
God is Love
The Bible says that God is love. Love is not just one of God’s attributes.

God is not just a loving individual. God is love in essence.

What a travesty; what a revolting definition of love it is that God, Who is love personified, would grant any creature a will so strong (Arminian) that they can choose themselves into an irreversible state of never ending suffering! Or, they deserve to suffer forever (Calvinist), just because they were born into the human race.

Love Divine - by D. Buchanan

“FROM the lips of love's apostle, exiled for love on Patmos' lonely isle, there sounds out in the saying, "God is Love," the most concise and comprehensive utterance in all language, the most sublime declaration of truth by mortals ever heard. These three one-syllable words reveal the character of God and make it to be known that behind things, as the source and fountain-head from which they spring, there throbs the one great heart of infinite, unchanging love.

Although, to finite understanding, life may meanwhile seem a tangled skein, and providence a confusion, yet when all the processes of Love have run their course, then it will be seen that the history of the ages, the story of the race, can be written with one small word, the term of infinite fullness that tells us what God is.

"God is Light" and "God is Love." Light, in passing through a prism, is separated into its component parts and appears as the seven colors of the rainbow. Each separate shade is a manifestation of light, and, although no one color in itself is light, yet without it light would not be what it is. So, too, the invisible love-light of Deity, passing through the prism of divine providence, appears as mercy, as righteousness, as goodness, as power. The operation of each attribute is a manifestation of love, and although no one quality in itself is love, yet without it, love would not be what it is. As the blue is in contrast to the red in the rainbow hues, so righteousness is to mercy in the spectrum of love. When the mercy manifestation of itself accomplishes God's purpose, then mercy is glad that righteousness was not required, for "mercy rejoiceth against judgment." Yet the heart that moves the mercy hand is the same heart that, if need be, moves the judgment hand, and that heart is God, and God is Love.

God loves just because He is Love, yet Love's hope in loving is to create and call forth love; hence Love's victory is love reciprocated, love returned. So it is that Love, mingling mercy with righteousness, moves ever on, longsuffering and kind, but failing never, until at length the creature heart responds in fullness, to love unbounded and divine.

And when, at length, humanity, redeemed, ransomed, transformed by the divine from which it sprang, has thus taken on the likeness of Love's perfect Man, the Man of Galilee and Golgotha, then Love, the Alpha, will likewise have become the Omega of all things, the atmosphere in which we live and move and have our being, and the universe will be flooded with divine affection.”

Kingdom Bible Studies: J. Preston Eby, Kingdom of God; Saviour of The World
Absolute Assurance
Or Google up
THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES EBY
or
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
for the scriptural evidence that God has the desire, ability, and determination to eventually save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved, including their stubborn wills. Or click on
The Law of Circularity
or
absolute assurance in jesus christ

[JamesMRohde]

rogerTutt said: "The idea that one can find salvation only during this life time is an unscriptural myth."

To which you answered:

Originally Posted by beloved57

What verse says that ?

You have no answer for the many times I've asked you that question. Apparently you're learning something like a parrot: repeating the sounds but not really understanding the meaning of your words. Either that or you think your doctrine is above being stated in the Bible.

The very point he's making is one I've stated over and over to you regarding many things you say. Tutt is saying that the idea death determines destiny is nowhere in the Bible. "When you die you stay the same as what you were when you died" is human tradition completely absent from the Bible. "God loves you...until you die" is an unbiblical lie!

Where is it in the Bible? "The idea that one can find salvation only during this life time is an unscriptural myth." The following and some parts of Chapter 3 of 1 Peter say it quite clearly...
"For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." (1 Peter 4:6)

[rodgertutt]

Originally Posted by JamesMRohde

You said "The idea that one can find salvation only during this life time is an unscriptural myth."

Where is it in the Bible?
You have no answer for the many times I've asked you that question.

I repeat my answer here.

According to the Bible any "hell" will be "kolasis aionion" which means age-during corrective chastisement. See what the Greek scholars say
Chapter Eleven
or copy and paste into Google
tentmaker books chapter eleven

It is limited in duration, and corrective in purpose.
Matthew 25:46 - “Aionian” or “Eternal”
Copy and paste into Google
Matthew 25:46 - “Aionian” or “Eternal”
or
Copy and paste into Google
AIÓN – AIÓNIOS
AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS

MY GREEK SCHOLARS – Louis Abbott and the other Greek scholars he quotes in chapters 3 and 12.
Copy and paste into Google
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS or click on
An Analytical Study of Words

The argument about “eternal hell” nearly always ends with the words, “My Greek scholars are more reliable than your Greek scholars,” and the result is nearly always a stalemate.

If you think it glorifies God more to let some of His creatures suffer forever, then you keep believing that.

But if you think it glorifies God more to eventually meet everyone on the level of their greatest and deepest need which is a change in their stubborn will, then know that there is plenty of evidence in the Bible that that is exactly what God is like.

[rodgertutt]

Originally Posted by rodgertutt

I repeat my answer here.

According to the Bible any "hell" will be "kolasis aionion" which means age-during corrective chastisement. See what the Greek scholars say
Chapter Eleven
or copy and paste into Google
tentmaker books chapter eleven

It is limited in duration, and corrective in purpose.
Matthew 25:46 - “Aionian” or “Eternal”
Copy and paste into Google
Matthew 25:46 - “Aionian” or “Eternal”
or
Copy and paste into Google
AIÓN – AIÓNIOS
AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS

MY GREEK SCHOLARS – Louis Abbott and the other Greek scholars he quotes in chapters 3 and 12.
Copy and paste into Google
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS or click on
An Analytical Study of Words

The argument about “eternal hell” nearly always ends with the words, “My Greek scholars are more reliable than your Greek scholars,” and the result is nearly always a stalemate.

If you think it glorifies God more to let some of His creatures suffer forever, then you keep believing that.

But if you think it glorifies God more to eventually meet everyone on the level of their greatest and deepest need which is a change in their stubborn will, then know that there is plenty of evidence in the Bible that that is exactly what God is like.

EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW

Every knee bowing in the Name of Jesus (Phil 2:9; Is 45:23)
“in” is the literal Greek translation. See Young’s Literal Translation.

and every tongue acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord.

And we know that anyone who acclaims that Jesus Christ is Lord,
especially when it is to God's glory without any hypocrisy is saved for 1Corinthians 12:3 says so

Every Knee Shall Bow

Every knee shall bow -- forced or free will

[rodgertutt]

THE WORLD’S MOST EVIL BELIEFS – IMHO
The Law of Circularity

The world’s most evil beliefs & the most important issue

The eternal torment theology of the Arminian Christian relies on so-called “free will” and luck.

The god that Arminian Christian eternal tormentors profess to love says to his fallen creatures

“Unless you are lucky enough to find out about my son during this lifetime, and even if you are that lucky, if you don’t have the good sense to cooperate with my son properly before you die, then I am going to raise you from the dead and I will sustain you alive in an inescapable state of eternal torment forever.”

The eternal torment theology of the Calvinist Christian relies on God alone, not “free will” at all. It is summed up by the word TULIP: Total depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irresistible grace, and the Perseverance of the elect.

The god that Calvinistic Christian eternal tormentors profess to love says to his fallen creatures

"I created most of you for the purpose of torturing you forever. However, I am going to choose a few of you undeserving ones to go to heaven where you will be happy forever." John Calvin said there will be infants a span long in hell because they were not among the elect. (A span is the distance between the tip of the thumb to the tip of the little finger.)

And then both the Arminian and Calvinistic eternal tormentors say that the feelings that they have for this god of theirs is “love.”

Without God’s sustaining power everyone would cease to exist. So if anyone were to suffer forever, our all-powerful God (Who is Love in essence, not just loving) would be fully 100% responsible for it. We would have to conclude that any definition of the manifestation of “love-in-essence” includes eternally sustaining people alive in an inescapable state of suffering.
The Law of Circularity

What a travesty; what a revolting definition of love it is that God, Who is love personified, would grant any creature a will so strong that they can choose themselves into an irreversible state of never ending suffering (Arminian) or deserve to suffer forever just by being born into the human race (Calvinist)!!

Thank God the Bible does not teach such insane ideas!
Kingdom Bible Studies: J. Preston Eby, Kingdom of God; Saviour of The World
Absolute Assurance
Universal Salvation University

Copy and paste one of the following titles into Google
SAVIOR OF THE WORLD SERIES EBY
Or
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
Or
UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY

Anyone is welcome to believe anything they want to about what the Bible teaches.

I'm just so glad I learned about the following information.
It enabled me to recover from a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78.
I'm 70 now.
I, and many others with whom I have become acquainted, simply could not successfully emotionally cope with the idea that God would let anyone suffer forever. Here is the testimony of Charles Slagle who went insane for the same reasons that I did.
Copy and paste the following title into Google
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST or click on
absolute assurance in jesus christ or
Absolute Assurance

Eternal Torment Calvinism, Eternal Torment Arminianism, Annihilation, or Christian Biblical Universalism.

Which one of the four is the truth?

This debate nearly always ends with the words, "My Greek scholars are more reliable
than your Greek scholars," and the result is a stalemate.
If readers think it glorifies God more to believe that He is going to let some of His
creatures suffer forever or annihilate them, then they should keep believing that.
But if they think it glorifies God more to eventually meet everyone on the level of their
greatest and deepest need, which is a change in their stubborn will, then I would like
them to know that that is exactly what the Bible teaches that God is like.

THE MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE

The findings of Greek scholar Louis Abbott and the other Greek scholars quoted in
chapters three and twelve of his online book IMHO renders all other arguments irrelevant.

IMHO these findings effectively close the case on the arguments that eternal tormentors try so hard to uphold.
But of course one has to actually read them to see what I mean.

Just Google up AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS and enjoy, or click on
An Analytical Study of Words

• Eternal Death Annihilation
• Eternal Death (Annihilation): One Step Out of Hell; One Step Short of Glory
• Bible Threatenings Explained
• Bible Threatenings Explained
• Universal Salvation University
• Universal Salvation University

[rodgertutt]

THE FALLACY OF “FREE WILL”

Copy and paste into Google
HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE or click on
Concordant Expositions (html format) - His Achievement Are We
The introduction at the beginning of each chapter is not the chapter itself. You must click on the highlighted title of each chapter to bring up the entire chapter to read it.

Pride says, "I got myself saved by properly cooperating with God."

Humility says, "God laid hold on me by His saving grace and CAUSED Jesus to be "choice" in my heart no thanks to myself at all; just like He did for Saul of Tarsus who became the apostle Paul when a light from heaven blinded him and Jesus said, “I am Jesus Whom you are persecuting.” And Paul said, “Lord, what will you have me do.”

Our conversion may not be anywhere near as dramatic as Paul's but IMHO it is no less a 100% accomplishment of God's grace alone plus nothing.

God's grace can temporarily be resisted to teach lessons.
But God's grace can NEVER be defeated.

God’s desire, and ability, and intention to eventually save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved will SUPERCEED the will of the most stubborn of sinners because of what Christ accomplished by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross.

If God is really not willing that any perish, then why will they perish? Don't talk to me about free will. "No man can come to Me," Jesus said, "except the Father draw him" (John 6:44). Salvation is indeed a gift from God, sovereignly given, to whomever God chooses, when He chooses, and He will indeed grant it to all mankind, in due time (Titus 2:11, 1 Tim 2:6). It does not depend on man's acceptance. Left to themselves, no man would ever choose God (Rom. 3:10-11). At the present time, God bestows benefits of life, food, health, rain, etc, to saints and sinners alike (Acts 17:25). He also has ordained for all mankind to experience a portion of both good and evil as well. The experiences of life are all preparatory to, and in anticipation of, our eternal life with God.

Some say all are given equal opportunity . . . "? Not so! This is patently untrue. The Scriptures clearly show that all mankind was plunged into its present state of being lost by the actions of one man, Adam (Rom. 5:12). All mankind are born sinners. In the history of the world, very few of mankind have ever been given the opportunity to believe in the "only name given under heaven, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:12). Salvation is a gift, sovereignly given to those of God's choice. It was procured by the obedience of One Man, Christ Jesus, and His death on the cross (Rom. 5:15-18). It is for all mankind, it is presently enjoyed by all who believe, and will be bestowed on all mankind in due time (Romans 3:22, Titus 2:11, 1 Tim 2:6). God's mercy is based on the fact that all sin has been judged in the person of His Son. God has subjected the whole creation to the experience of evil, in order to extend mercy to all (Rom 8:20). Romans 1:20 says that man is without excuse for denying God's existence. But the free gift of salvation has not yet been revealed to all mankind; only to a few now, in due time to all (Titus 2:11, 1 Tim 2:6).

Copy and paste into Goodge
IS MAN A FREE MORAL AGENT?
Or click on
Man Is A Free Moral Agent: Just What Do You Mean Man is A Free Moral Agent; The Sinner Must Decide; The Shepherd Seeks The Sheep; The Will Of Man; I Will Draw All Men Unto Me; By One Man