What About Hell? (Kingdom, Israel, verses, Isaiah)

[CelticLady1]

Originally Posted by Reformed Liberal

You are under the impression that people are good and that's not true, God said, we are children of the devil, we are a child of wrath...

...because Jesus sacrifice was the way for God to see all of us disgusting, wretched sinners as righteous, through the blood of Christ.

Yipe! Good night! That's a heck of a way to describe those who are made in God's image! Old Johnathan Edwards would have been proud of his (inherited) Puritanical influence on the church, here in 2008, because, unfortunately, that's how most of the church still sees things.

I tend to think that if one is continously told that one is a horrible, wretched, disgusting sinner, that one lives up to exactly that ideal. Could it be that had the church, down through the centuries, emphasized God's love and goodness, and that we are truly created in his image, (and not the devil's), perhaps the church wouldn't have the unlovely history that it now carries? How unfortunate that Pelagius and his teachings were considered heretical. He could have been a beneficial influence on the continued formation of the church. Instead, we were left with the harshness of Augustine, Jerome, and others of like mind.

I've often thought of the lady at the well, and the lady who was brought to Jesus, after having been caught in adultery, (by the way, just where the heck was that guy, anyway?!). They, (and the many others that Jesus dealt with), were not told what disgusting, terrible sinners they were. Yes, their sin was acknowledged, yet Jesus did not harp on it, or treat them in a harsh manner, (well, except for the religious people, which is rather interesting). He adjured them to not return to that sin, and sent them on their way. Perhaps if Christians weren't so darn busy bashing folks with their Bibles, (figuratively and collectively-speaking, of course. Not all Christians do this), telling them how hideous they are, then these same "sinful" people would actually hear Jesus. After all, isn't that who we are all supposed to be hearing, in the first place? I don't know; just a thought...

[firstborn888]

Originally Posted by Reformed Liberal

Hell is real, it exist. Jesus talked about it more than He did heaven.

I don't think your statement is accurate, even though it's something parroted many times over. I suppose if you lump in destruction and weeping and gnashing of teeth and outer darkness all together to mean 'hell' (which is a mistake) then it could be true, but actually Jesus only mentions Gehenna 12 times on 8 occasions.

[Birdy_56]

Originally Posted by Reformed Liberal

Hell is real, it exist. Jesus talked about it more than He did heaven. God doesn't send us to will, in actuality we do.

Jesus talked about it more than He did heaven? Oh please! You are not even close. All references in the N.T. relating to hell (hades, gehenna and tartaroo) total 23, of which the Master of the reconciliation speaks how many times? After you have researched that, I suggest you take a peak at the number of references to heaven and the kingdom of God.

[Fundamentalist]

Originally Posted by firstborn888

I don't think your statement is accurate, even though it's something parroted many times over. I suppose if you lump in destruction and weeping and gnashing of teeth and outer darkness all together to mean 'hell' (which is a mistake) then it could be true, but actually Jesus only mentions Gehenna 12 times on 8 occasions.

Because I am not waisting my time explaining something that is multiplicity evident, so I used a number of cliches

[Fundamentalist]

Originally Posted by CelticLady1

Yipe! Good night! That's a heck of a way to describe those who are made in God's image! Old Johnathan Edwards would have been proud of his (inherited) Puritanical influence on the church, here in 2008, because, unfortunately, that's how most of the church still sees things.

I tend to think that if one is continously told that one is a horrible, wretched, disgusting sinner, that one lives up to exactly that ideal. Could it be that had the church, down through the centuries, emphasized God's love and goodness, and that we are truly created in his image, (and not the devil's), perhaps the church wouldn't have the unlovely history that it now carries? How unfortunate that Pelagius and his teachings were considered heretical. He could have been a beneficial influence on the continued formation of the church. Instead, we were left with the harshness of Augustine, Jerome, and others of like mind.

I've often thought of the lady at the well, and the lady who was brought to Jesus, after having been caught in adultery, (by the way, just where the heck was that guy, anyway?!). They, (and the many others that Jesus dealt with), were not told what disgusting, terrible sinners they were. Yes, their sin was acknowledged, yet Jesus did not harp on it, or treat them in a harsh manner, (well, except for the religious people, which is rather interesting). He adjured them to not return to that sin, and sent them on their way. Perhaps if Christians weren't so darn busy bashing folks with their Bibles, (figuratively and collectively-speaking, of course. Not all Christians do this), telling them how hideous they are, then these same "sinful" people would actually hear Jesus. After all, isn't that who we are all supposed to be hearing, in the first place? I don't know; just a thought...

Then by all means, explain these 2 verses (Ephesian 2:3), "Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest."

(1 John 3:10) "By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother."

How would you interpret these verses? How did you come by your interpretation and is your interpretation true?

[Fundamentalist]

Originally Posted by Birdy_56

Jesus talked about it more than He did heaven? Oh please! You are not even close. All references in the N.T. relating to hell (hades, gehenna and tartaroo) total 23, of which the Master of the reconciliation speaks how many times? After you have researched that, I suggest you take a peak at the number of references to heaven and the kingdom of God.

ahhhhh..."where the worm never die, fire quencheth etc..... ring a bell. How about parables. I meant the bible not Jesus, sorry

[CelticLady1]

Originally Posted by Reformed Liberal

Then by all means, explain these 2 verses (Ephesian 2:3), "Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest."

(1 John 3:10) "By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother."

How would you interpret these verses? How did you come by your interpretations and is your interpretations true?

I believe my interpretation is just as true as you believe yours to be, since I'm basing it on Jesus' words and actions, as recorded in the New Testament. The church clings too tightly to this idea of man's sinfulness. The church has had more than it's share of such thinking down through the centuries, and it has caused the church to act in ways that are most un-Christlike. Since the Puritanical stance hasn't exactly worked a positive influence on the world, (indeed, it has caused more harm than good), perhaps we would do well to consider Jesus' way of looking at people.

That is not to say that sin, as such, should not be addressed, (Jesus certainly addressed it), but, I prefer to look to both Jesus' words and his actions as an example, as opposed to looking to the words of Paul or John, (i.e telling people how horrible they are). Jesus' reactions to the people around him were more of the forgiving nature, and I don't recall him telling folks how dispicable they were, (again, with the exception of the religious people, which is very telling), therefore, I believe we should take our object lesson from him. Otherwise, I believe it is very difficult to look at people with the same love that Jesus had, and we become very harsh, and very judgemental, just as the Puritans, and others of like mind, were. Did they mean well? Probably most of them did, but it doesn't change the fact that they left out the love and forgiveness that Jesus taught.

If one chooses to be Puritancial in one's approach to people, with the emphasis on how terrible they are, they will respond in kind, much the same way as a child will respond if he/she is continuously told that they are stupid and ugly. If we wish people to respond favorably to the Gospel, I believe it would behoove us to emphasize not only God's love and goodness, but that we, too, have the capacity for love and goodness.

[Fundamentalist]

Well I am still awaiting your interpretation on those verses.

I didn't ask you that. Seriously as a Christian you must use the bible to back up your interpretation. You just can't make stuff up by saying, it's what you believe because what you and I believe is IRRELEVANT. As Christians we go by the bible, the ENTIRE bible, which is God's words which is also Jesus word's not just the red letters.

If I wanted to prove that spinning a top on a Saturday brings manna from heaven in the bible then I could do it but that doesn't make it right.

It doesn't matter what you believe or that the church is too consumed by sin. What ONLY matters is what does the bible say? and is it true?

[CelticLady1]

Originally Posted by Reformed Liberal

I didn't ask you that. Seriously as a Christian you must use the bible to back up your interpretation. You just can't make stuff up what you believe as you go because what you and I believe is IRRELEVANT. As Christians we go by the bible, the ENTIRE bible, which is God's words who is also Jesus word's not just the red letters.

If I wanted to prove that spinning a top on a Saturday brings manna from heaven in the bible then I could do it but that doesn't make it right.

It doesn't matter what you believe or the church is too consumed by sin. What does the bible say? and is it true?

Made-up stuff? That's interesting, because I could have sworn that I was citing Jesus as our example of how we should interact with others, (or, indeed, how we should look at ourselves). Merely because I put the emphasis on Jesus' words and actions, rather than on Paul or John's words, doesn't make me wrong.

I love my children, and because I do, although I addressed and dealt with their misbehavior when they were young, I did not speak disparagingly of, or to them. Even if they got a spanking, they knew that I loved them, no matter how much I disliked their misbehavior. I believe this was Jesus' example, as he dealt with the sinners with whom he interacted. He didn't like their sin, but he didn't resort to name-calling, and negativity, as he dealt with each person. I suspect that Jesus probably would have had some pithy words for the Puritans, (both those of our early American history, and our modern-day ones), as much as he did for the religious folks 2,000 years ago. He was forthright, but he didn't cut "ordinary" people to the quick. Truth, mixed with grace and love, seems to be the way Jesus handled most people.

My interpretation of those two verses? Well, you won't like it, but this is what I believe: the letters of Ephesians, and First John, (as well as the rest), were written specifically to the churches of the time, and I believe that they were influenced by each man's personality, character, prejudices, and cultural upbringing. And, although we can glean truth from them, I personally doubt that had Jesus written letters himself, to the churches, they would have been worded in such a negative, discouraging fashion, as was frequently employed by the writers of these letters. Certainly, what is recorded of Jesus in the New Testament would seem to lend credence to that idea, (in all fairness, of course, it is likely that the Gospels were just as influenced by their writers. But, at least Jesus' dealings with sinners were given off in a more positive fashion, instead of the idea that people are about one notch above pond scum).

I don't pretend to be a Bible scholar, or to "properly" interpret scripture, but, in reading the Gospels, I am convinced that Jesus' way of dealing with people was better than that of all the Pauls, Augustines, Jeromes, and Johnathan Edwards in the world. I am a big one for balance, and I believe that Jesus showed that balance, if we would but learn it.

[ShanaBrown]

None of us are good and we ALL deserve hell, that's why God sent His Son, Jesus to take the punishment that was meant for us. Jesus paid our fine

Hi, Jesus did not go to an eternal hell and if eternal hell is the penalty, then He would have paid the penalty, right? Jesus died for us and the wages of sin is death according to Romans 6:23. God bless.