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Old 07-30-2009, 03:59 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
2,976 posts, read 1,437,342 times
Reputation: 216
Default Calvinism versus arminianism

beloved 57 is welcome to believe anything he wants to about what the Bible teaches.
IMO he preaches a hiddeous characature of what God is really like.

Here is what I believe the Bible teaches instead.

CALVINISM VERSUS ARMINIANISM

Calvinism, Arminianism, or Christian Biblical Universalism
Which view of salvation is true?

These two links specifically respond to that question.

ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST – Charles Slagle
Absolute Assurance

THE LAW OF CIRCULARITY – J.Preston Eby
The Law of Circularity: Will Jesus Torture Billions Forever? How Men Are Saved

Calvinism is a cruel and unloving profanity.

Arminianism is a proud and self-righteous profanity.

Calvinism is cruel and unloving because it claims that God allows beings to come into existence that deserve to suffer endlessly, and will suffer endlessly, except for a few that God will rescue from such a fate by His irresistible grace.

Aminianism is proud and self-righteous because it claims that only those who receive the proper information, and act on it properly before they die, will avoid suffering endlessly. They claim that God is unable to successfully influence anyone's will, unless they let Him.

The Calvinist's god allows millions of beings to come into existence and either cannot, or will not, do anything to stop them from suffering forever.

The Arminian's god lets us down just when we need Him the most. Our greatest need is a change in our stubborn will. The Arminian god either cannot, or will not meet us, on this, the level of our greatest need.

A profanity is an idea conceived by our sinful hearts. Both Calvinism and Arminianism are profanities. Against the black background of these profanities God will paint the glorious masterpiece of universal transformation.

The truth of universal transformation solves all of the irreconcilable differences between Calvinism and Arminianism. It recognizes that our "free will" is the freedom to choose only in the direction of the strongest influence, and that God is in intimate sovereign control over all influences.

Each person is being fitted into God's master-plan in God's own special way for them. Each person responds to their own unique set of "strongest influences." And ultimately, when the time period of the ages has ended, God will have transformed the consequences of everyone's choices into something glorifying to Himself, and beneficial to the chooser.

It is unavoidable that how we think about God will affect our state of being. We tend to become like the god we worship. The one who puts their faith in Calvinism, tends to become cruel and unloving. The one who puts their faith in Arminianism, tends to become proud and self-righteous. If a Calvinist is not cruel and unloving, or, if an Arminian is not proud and self-righteous, it is entirely due to the intervention of God's undefeatable grace through Christ. God often operates through people in spite of what they believe.

God's grace can only be resisted if God wants to teach us lessons that could be learned no other way. But ultimately, God's grace is undefeatable.

Both Calvinism and Arminianism are built upon the false foundation of "endless hell." When this foundation has been replaced, the differences between them become irrelevant.

The profanity of the doctrine of "endless suffering in hell" is also part of the black background upon which God will paint His glorious masterpiece. Without fail, God will, in due time, transform all deceptions, delusions, and false doctrines, into something better that they temporarily prevailed than if they had not. And He will do this for everyone, without exception.

Calvinism, Arminianism, or Christian Biblical Universalism
WHICH VIEW OF SALVATION IS TRUE?
These two links specifically respond to that question.

ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST – Charles Slagle
Absolute Assurance

THE LAW OF CIRCULARITY – J.Preston Eby
The Law of Circularity: Will Jesus Torture Billions Forever? How Men Are Saved

Last edited by rodgertutt; 07-30-2009 at 04:07 PM.. Reason: spacing
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Old 07-30-2009, 04:05 PM
 
Location: The A
1,876 posts, read 1,284,512 times
Reputation: 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt View Post
beloved 57 is welcome to believe anything he wants to about what the Bible teaches.
But here is what I believe instead.

CALVINISM VERSUS ARMINIANISM

Calvinism, Arminianism, or Christian Biblical Universalism
Which view of salvation is true?

These two links specifically respond to that question.

ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST Ė Charles Slagle
Absolute Assurance

THE LAW OF CIRCULARITY Ė J.Preston Eby
The Law of Circularity: Will Jesus Torture Billions Forever? How Men Are Saved

Calvinism is a cruel and unloving profanity.

Arminianism is a proud and self-righteous profanity.

Calvinism is cruel and unloving because it claims that God allows beings to come into existence that deserve to suffer endlessly, and will suffer endlessly, except for a few that God will rescue from such a fate by His irresistible grace.

Aminianism is proud and self-righteous because it claims that only those who receive the proper information, and act on it properly before they die, will avoid suffering endlessly. They claim that God is unable to successfully influence anyone's will, unless they let Him.

The Calvinist's god allows millions of beings to come into existence and either cannot, or will not, do anything to stop them from suffering forever.

The Arminian's god lets us down just when we need Him the most. Our greatest need is a change in our stubborn will. The Arminian god either cannot, or will not meet us, on this, the level of our greatest need.

A profanity is an idea conceived by our sinful hearts. Both Calvinism and Arminianism are profanities. Against the black background of these profanities God will paint the glorious masterpiece of universal transformation.

The truth of universal transformation solves all of the irreconcilable differences between Calvinism and Arminianism. It recognizes that our "free will" is the freedom to choose only in the direction of the strongest influence, and that God is in intimate sovereign control over all influences.

Each person is being fitted into God's master-plan in God's own special way for them. Each person responds to their own unique set of "strongest influences." And ultimately, when the time period of the ages has ended, God will have transformed the consequences of everyone's choices into something glorifying to Himself, and beneficial to the chooser.

It is unavoidable that how we think about God will affect our state of being. We tend to become like the god we worship. The one who puts their faith in Calvinism, tends to become cruel and unloving. The one who puts their faith in Arminianism, tends to become proud and self-righteous. If a Calvinist is not cruel and unloving, or, if an Arminian is not proud and self-righteous, it is entirely due to the intervention of God's undefeatable grace through Christ. God often operates through people in spite of what they believe.

God's grace can only be resisted if God wants to teach us lessons that could be learned no other way. But ultimately, God's grace is undefeatable.

Both Calvinism and Arminianism are built upon the false foundation of "endless hell." When this foundation has been replaced, the differences between them become irrelevant.

The profanity of the doctrine of "endless suffering in hell" is also part of the black background upon which God will paint His glorious masterpiece. Without fail, God will, in due time, transform all deceptions, delusions, and false doctrines, into something better that they temporarily prevailed than if they had not. And He will do this for everyone, without exception.

Calvinism, Arminianism, or Christian Biblical Universalism
WHICH VIEW OF SALVATION IS TRUE?
These two links specifically respond to that question.

ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST Ė Charles Slagle
Absolute Assurance

THE LAW OF CIRCULARITY Ė J.Preston Eby
The Law of Circularity: Will Jesus Torture Billions Forever? How Men Are Saved

Or copy And paste into Google
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
or
THE LAW OF CIRCULARITY
You dont teach the Truth..you teach against Jesus christ..

Matt 25:

41Then shall he [Jesus christ] say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

This is true, regardless of anything you say, or post..I dont care..
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Old 07-30-2009, 04:17 PM
 
Location: The A
1,876 posts, read 1,284,512 times
Reputation: 46
Quote:
Looks like repetition is the name of beloved57's game.
You repeatedly reject Gods word..
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Old 07-30-2009, 04:28 PM
 
Location: The A
1,876 posts, read 1,284,512 times
Reputation: 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt View Post
Looks like repetition is the name of beloved57's game.
Well, I can play that game too.
OF COURSE YOU CARE BELOVED57, OR YOU WOULDN'T KEEP REPEATING THE SAME POST OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

beloved57, just like you said to us, we think that you yourself are "grasping at air and your scripture quoting is meaningless" because you are quoting an interpretively translated Bible instead of a literally translated Bible.
That is the crux of the matter.

The Christians closest to the time of Jesus, for more than the first 500 years of Christianity believed the Bible teaches universal salvation, and they were reading it in its original language.

Had I not discovered an alternate point of view, I would right now be locked away in a mental hopital for the rest of my life because beloved57's perception of God caused me to have a twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78) over my inability to love his god.
I'm 70 years old now.
See the thread I started on this forum called THE TESTIMONY OF RODGER TUTT for my whole story.

IMO the greatest of all manifestations of God's grace in action on this earth is that anyone can believe in never ending suffering for anyone and not have a breakdown thinking about it. Personally I would rather live out my life as an agnostic rather than put my trust in any book that teaches that

No two words in the history of man have been so torturing as aion and aionion. No two words in the history of man, mishandled by man, have contributed more to the physical, emotional and spiritual harm of so many, than these. You may think I must be exaggerating. But I am not. It is the mistranslation of these two words that has foisted the false and destructive doctrine of eternal torment upon the church and the world.

Mistranslation of the Greek words "aion" and ďaionionĒ is a master stroke of
diabolical genius. No other words erroneously translated, could more effectively pervert manís image of God and cause such widespread confusion. The following work by Joseph E. Kirk is offered in the hope that the serious seeker after scriptural truth will be aided in their quest.
CHART OF GODíS PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
The eons of the Bible With Concordance, Godís purpose of the eons.

Also see
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
An Analytical Study of Words
(especially note the quotes by the many Greek scholars in chapters three and twelve)

To find the truth one must use a literally translated Bible like Youngs, or Concordant, or Rotherhams, or Weymouths, or Wilsons, or Bullingers, or Clementsons, or Scarletts, instead of an interpretively translated Bible.

Matthew 25:46 should literally read "age-during corrective chastisement" (kolais aionion) not "everlasting punishment" like it does in interpretively translated Bibles.

While the elect are enjoying age-during life, the non-elect will experience age-during corrective chastisement.

BTW the Greek word aidios (not aionios) was used by Greek Jews as meaning eternal during the time of Jesus.
Jesus never adopted the language of his day on this subject. Their language was aidios timoria, endless torment. His language was aionion kolasin, age-lasting correction. They described unending ruin, He, discipline, resulting in reformation.

If Jesus had meant eternal He would have used aidios which was understood by Jesus' contemporaries as meaning eternal.
Gods Truth is more important than your humanism and philosophy..
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Old 07-30-2009, 04:31 PM
 
Location: NC
10,259 posts, read 8,251,919 times
Reputation: 1204
The Eonian God
Quote:

" The existence of God is not confined to the eons. He made the eons; therefore, He existed before they began. At the conclusion of the eons Jesus Christ will do away with sin (Heb.9:26) and will abolish death (1 Cor.15:22-26). All will then be subjected to God and God will be All in all (1 Cor.15:27,28). Therefore, God continues to exist after the eons have ended. The statement “from everlasting to everlasting thou art God” (Psa.90:2) is literally “from age to age thou art God.” This does not limit God’s existence to the eons any more than the statement, “I am the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob” (Ex.3:6), excludes Him from being the God of others also. The same is true of the reference to Him as “the eonian God” (Rom.16:25,26).
During the present wicked eon (Gal.1:4), Sin reigns, Satan who is said to be “the god of this eon” (2 Cor.4:4) blinds and deceives mankind, and death swallows up the race (1 Cor.15:22). But notwithstanding, God is over all and is in supreme control. He is the eonian God. In due time He will deliver the entire creation and bring good out of all the suffering mankind is called upon to endure (Rom.8;18-23).
The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.

God bless.
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Old 07-30-2009, 04:43 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
2,976 posts, read 1,437,342 times
Reputation: 216
Default I repeatedly reject your interpretation

I REPEATEDLY REJECT YOUR VERSION'S INTERPRETATION OF GOD'S WORD

beloved57, just like you said to us, we think that you yourself are "grasping at air and your scripture quoting is meaningless" because you are quoting an interpretively translated Bible instead of a literally translated Bible.
That is the crux of the matter.

The Christians closest to the time of Jesus, for more than the first 500 years of Christianity believed the Bible teaches universal salvation, and they were reading it in its original language.

Had I not discovered an alternate point of view, I would right now be locked away in a mental hopital for the rest of my life because beloved57's perception of God caused me to have a twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78) over my inability to love his god.
I'm 70 years old now.
See the thread I started on this forum called THE TESTIMONY OF RODGER TUTT for my whole story.

IMO the greatest of all manifestations of God's grace in action on this earth is that anyone can believe in never ending suffering for anyone and not have a breakdown thinking about it. Personally I would rather live out my life as an agnostic rather than put my trust in any book that teaches that

No two words in the history of man have been so torturing as aion and aionion. No two words in the history of man, mishandled by man, have contributed more to the physical, emotional and spiritual harm of so many, than these. You may think I must be exaggerating. But I am not. It is the mistranslation of these two words that has foisted the false and destructive doctrine of eternal torment upon the church and the world.

Mistranslation of the Greek words "aion" and ďaionionĒ is a master stroke of
diabolical genius. No other words erroneously translated, could more effectively pervert manís image of God and cause such widespread confusion. The following work by Joseph E. Kirk is offered in the hope that the serious seeker after scriptural truth will be aided in their quest.
CHART OF GODíS PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
The eons of the Bible With Concordance, Godís purpose of the eons.

Also see
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
An Analytical Study of Words
(especially note the quotes by the many Greek scholars in chapters three and twelve)

To find the truth one must use a literally translated Bible like Youngs, or Concordant, or Rotherhams, or Weymouths, or Wilsons, or Bullingers, or Clementsons, or Scarletts, instead of an interpretively translated Bible.

Matthew 25:46 should literally read "age-during corrective chastisement" (kolais aionion) not "everlasting punishment" like it does in interpretively translated Bibles.

While the elect are enjoying age-during life, the non-elect will experience age-during corrective chastisement.

BTW the Greek word aidios (not aionios) was used by Greek Jews as meaning eternal during the time of Jesus.
Jesus never adopted the language of his day on this subject. Their language was aidios timoria, endless torment. His language was aionion kolasin, age-lasting correction. They described unending ruin, He, discipline, resulting in reformation.

If Jesus had meant eternal He would have used aidios which was understood by Jesus' contemporaries as meaning eternal.
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Old 07-30-2009, 05:20 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
2,976 posts, read 1,437,342 times
Reputation: 216
Default God's glorious masterpiece

beloved57's belief is part of the black background upon which God will paint His glorious materpiece of universal transformation through what Christ accomplished by His death and resurrection and the power in the blood of His cross.

The Restitution of All Things: There Is One God; The Lord Our God Is One; All Things Created By God; All Things Created In Christ; All Things Out Of Him; The Unfragmented One; All Things Through Him; All Things Into Him; Restitution
(especially read the very last paragraph on that link)

Last edited by rodgertutt; 07-30-2009 at 05:44 PM.. Reason: addition
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Old 07-30-2009, 08:11 PM
 
Location: The A
1,876 posts, read 1,284,512 times
Reputation: 46
Default You reject Gods Truth

Not my interpretation you reject, but Gods Truth..I reject your interpreation and your buddies..

Here is the Truth:

Matt 25:

41Then shall he [Jesus christ] say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
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Old 07-30-2009, 08:30 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
2,976 posts, read 1,437,342 times
Reputation: 216
Default No, here is the truth

NO, HERE IS THE TRUTH

beloved57, just like you said to us, we think that you yourself are "grasping at air and your scripture quoting is meaningless" because you are quoting an interpretively translated Bible instead of a literally translated Bible.
That is the crux of the matter.

The Christians closest to the time of Jesus, for more than the first 500 years of Christianity believed the Bible teaches universal salvation, and they were reading it in its original language.

Had I not discovered an alternate point of view, I would right now be locked away in a mental hopital for the rest of my life because beloved57's perception of God caused me to have a twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78) over my inability to love his god.
I'm 70 years old now.
See the thread I started on this forum called THE TESTIMONY OF RODGER TUTT for my whole story.

IMO the greatest of all manifestations of God's grace in action on this earth is that anyone can believe in never ending suffering for anyone and not have a breakdown thinking about it. Personally I would rather live out my life as an agnostic rather than put my trust in any book that teaches that

No two words in the history of man have been so torturing as aion and aionion. No two words in the history of man, mishandled by man, have contributed more to the physical, emotional and spiritual harm of so many, than these. You may think I must be exaggerating. But I am not. It is the mistranslation of these two words that has foisted the false and destructive doctrine of eternal torment upon the church and the world.

Mistranslation of the Greek words "aion" and ďaionionĒ is a master stroke of
diabolical genius. No other words erroneously translated, could more effectively pervert manís image of God and cause such widespread confusion. The following work by Joseph E. Kirk is offered in the hope that the serious seeker after scriptural truth will be aided in their quest.
CHART OF GODíS PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
The eons of the Bible With Concordance, Godís purpose of the eons.

Also see
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
An Analytical Study of Words
(especially note the quotes by the many Greek scholars in chapters three and twelve)

To find the truth one must use a literally translated Bible like Youngs, or Concordant, or Rotherhams, or Weymouths, or Wilsons, or Bullingers, or Clementsons, or Scarletts, instead of an interpretively translated Bible.

Matthew 25:46 should literally read "age-during corrective chastisement" (kolais aionion) not "everlasting punishment" like it does in interpretively translated Bibles.

While the elect are enjoying age-during life, the non-elect will experience age-during corrective chastisement.

BTW the Greek word aidios (not aionios) was used by Greek Jews as meaning eternal during the time of Jesus.
Jesus never adopted the language of his day on this subject. Their language was aidios timoria, endless torment. His language was aionion kolasin, age-lasting correction. They described unending ruin, He, discipline, resulting in reformation.

If Jesus had meant eternal He would have used aidios which was understood by Jesus' contemporaries as meaning eternal.
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Old 07-30-2009, 08:31 PM
 
Location: The A
1,876 posts, read 1,284,512 times
Reputation: 46
You can reject Truth all day as you do but:

Here is the Truth:

Matt 25:

41Then shall he [Jesus christ] say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
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