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Old 07-31-2009, 05:40 AM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
3,001 posts, read 1,617,514 times
Reputation: 219

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I think this article posted by pcamps sinks beloved57s theological ship.
I wonder if he will read it?
He is so sure he is right, and what is worse, he doesn't seem to even have the desire to stop believing that God is going to sustain some of His creatures alive in an inescapable state of suffering forever. That is so sad!

It seem to me that any Christian should want to be able to believe in a Love that never fails. 1Corinthian 13
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Old 07-31-2009, 05:43 AM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
3,001 posts, read 1,617,514 times
Reputation: 219
Default aionios NEVER means everlasting

beloved57, just like you said to us, we think that you yourself are "grasping at air and your scripture quoting is meaningless" because you are quoting an interpretively translated Bible instead of a literally translated Bible.
That is the crux of the matter.

The Christians closest to the time of Jesus, for more than the first 500 years of Christianity believed the Bible teaches universal salvation, and they were reading it in its original language.

Had I not discovered an alternate point of view, I would right now be locked away in a mental hopital for the rest of my life because beloved57's perception of God caused me to have a twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78) over my inability to love his god.
I'm 70 years old now.
See the thread I started on this forum called THE TESTIMONY OF RODGER TUTT for my whole story.

IMO the greatest of all manifestations of God's grace in action on this earth is that anyone can believe in never ending suffering for anyone and not have a breakdown thinking about it. Personally I would rather live out my life as an agnostic rather than put my trust in any book that teaches that

No two words in the history of man have been so torturing as aion and aionion. No two words in the history of man, mishandled by man, have contributed more to the physical, emotional and spiritual harm of so many, than these. You may think I must be exaggerating. But I am not. It is the mistranslation of these two words that has foisted the false and destructive doctrine of eternal torment upon the church and the world.

Mistranslation of the Greek words "aion" and “aionion” is a master stroke of
diabolical genius. No other words erroneously translated, could more effectively pervert man’s image of God and cause such widespread confusion. The following work by Joseph E. Kirk is offered in the hope that the serious seeker after scriptural truth will be aided in their quest.
CHART OF GOD’S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.

Also see
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
An Analytical Study of Words
(especially note the quotes by the many Greek scholars in chapters three and twelve)

To find the truth one must use a literally translated Bible like Youngs, or Concordant, or Rotherhams, or Weymouths, or Wilsons, or Bullingers, or Clementsons, or Scarletts, instead of an interpretively translated Bible.

Matthew 25:46 should literally read "age-during corrective chastisement" (kolais aionion) not "everlasting punishment" like it does in interpretively translated Bibles.

While the elect are enjoying age-during life, the non-elect will experience age-during corrective chastisement.

BTW the Greek word aidios (not aionios) was used by Greek Jews as meaning eternal during the time of Jesus.
Jesus never adopted the language of his day on this subject. Their language was aidios timoria, endless torment. His language was aionion kolasin, age-lasting correction. They described unending ruin, He, discipline, resulting in reformation.

If Jesus had meant eternal He would have used aidios which was understood by Jesus' contemporaries as meaning eternal.
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Old 07-31-2009, 09:41 AM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
3,001 posts, read 1,617,514 times
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Default The calloused sadistic attitude of eters

Quote:
Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
Yeah, the devil and his seed will be subjected to God in the lake of fire forever lol (laugh out loud)
An excellent example of the obvious glee that most eternal tormentors experience when they contemplate the never-ending suffering of anyone.

Abraham Lincoln said to the eternal torment evangelist
"Your god is my devil."
And that is what I say to beloved57,
"Your god is my devil!"

Here is the truth about the devil.
THE PROBLEM OF EVIL – John Essex
AND THE ROLE OF THE ADVERSARY – James Webb
The Problem
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Old 07-31-2009, 09:56 AM
 
Location: Jacksonville,Florida
3,773 posts, read 7,000,066 times
Reputation: 1923
[quote=Ironmaw1776;10033665]
Quote:
Originally Posted by noland123 View Post

Yes, that is the ticket. Even after death God has the power through his righteous judgments to change men, that is the purpose of their being Judged by fire. After all the wages of sin is death not eternal torture. God is saving us from death. It(lake of fire) is for their purification. After that every knee shall bow and confess Jesus is lord to the glory of the father. All nations will turn to God and worship him and sing his name.(Isa 45:23, Rom 14:11, Psa 67:4, Psa 22:27, Psa 86:9, Rev 15:4)

At that time Col 1:20 will be fully manifest.

Col 1:20
"And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile(apokatallassō - to reconcile completely, to reconcile back again, bring back a former state of harmony) ALL THINGS unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth(all humans), or things in heaven(fallen angels)."
It is all over after life(death) here on Earth,either you are going to Heaven or to hell eternally.
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Old 07-31-2009, 10:28 AM
 
6,209 posts, read 3,985,800 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noland123 View Post
It is all over after life(death) here on Earth,either you are going to Heaven or to hell eternally.
No, it is not all over after death, scripture does not say such a thing.

In fact after this current age ends (at Jesus return), there are still multiple ages to come in which God will work His plan of salvation for all.

Eph 2:6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

See, there are many ages to come before the end of all ages (the consummation of the ages as shown in 1 Cor 10:11). After the ages end God will be all in all and all will have been reconciled to Him.
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Old 07-31-2009, 10:32 AM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
3,001 posts, read 1,617,514 times
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Default God Will Have All Men To Be Saved!

[quote=noland123;10037027]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
It is all over after life(death) here on Earth, either you are going to Heaven or to hell eternally.
Here is why I don't agree with you noland.
God Will Have All Men To Be Saved!
GOD WILL HAVE ALL MEN BE SAVED: I Will Draw All Men Unto Me; God's Oath - To Save All; The Justification Of All Mankind; Mercy Upon All; Why Teach Salvation For All?
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Old 07-31-2009, 11:29 AM
 
1,143 posts, read 946,408 times
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btw should the descendants of Cain not have perished in the flood as only Noah and his family survived?, so there could hardly be surivors of the serpent seed at all, if it ever existed.
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Old 07-31-2009, 12:21 PM
 
Location: RI
19,432 posts, read 9,566,123 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
btw should the descendants of Cain not have perished in the flood as only Noah and his family survived?, so there could hardly be surivors of the serpent seed at all, if it ever existed.
I think they and try to get around that by saying the wives of Noah's son's were serpent seed.
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Old 07-31-2009, 06:14 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
3,001 posts, read 1,617,514 times
Reputation: 219
Default What about hell?

This thread is called WHAT ABOUT HELL?
The posts here on this thread have been replied to nearly a thousand times, way more than its nearest subject title. That's how popular the subject is.

Before I retired I said to my eternal torment boss.
"God says to humans, "Either you love my Son or I'm going to raise you from the dead and I will sustain you alive in an inescapable state of eternal suffering in hell forever."

Then I said to my boss, "I simply can't recognize responding to that threat as "love."

My boss said, "Well, that's God's definition of love and you had better accept it or you will wind up in hell too."

On top of that the Calvinists say that the non-elect have been chosen to never experience the love of God but instead have been created for the sole purpose of suffering forever.

I frequently get told, "It shouldn't bother you that hell is going to be endless because you personally love Jesus and that's all that really matters." (I call it the "I'm all right Jack. Too bad for you." syndrome that I frequently encounter.)

But the fact is I do not, and cannot love Jesus with the definition of love that my former boss says is God's definition.

It was unsuccessfully trying to accept that definition of love that drove me into a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78. I'm 70 years old now.

And it was evidence to the contrary, taught by Ray Prinzing, that enabled me to recover from that breakdown.

Fortunately for people like me (and there are many of us!), all of Ray's writings can now be read online on the internet.

Last edited by rodgertutt; 07-31-2009 at 06:44 PM.. Reason: addition
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Old 07-31-2009, 06:17 PM
 
Location: NC
11,653 posts, read 9,153,594 times
Reputation: 1274
Thank you, Rodger. God bless.
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