Pentecostal vs. Non-Pentecostal (Epistles, believing, sinners, Christ)

[mari4him]

Originally Posted by forest beekeeper

Focus on why it can not be so, and you will further prove to yourself why it can not be so. A self-fulfilling prophecy.

Cry to God, ask Him to guide you. And He will.

God never fails.

Very very good point. I can vouch for that. One thing that I have learned through the years that I have been a Christian is that it is crucial to pray before reading God's word and ask that the Holy Spirit would lead us in truth and understanding, revealing to us the word of God as God wills it to be revealed.

When I first got saved, prior to learning the importance of doing just that, praying before reading God's word, I found that I could turn to many scriptures that could tell me exactly what I wanted to hear. Thats the thing, it told me what I wanted to hear, not necessarily what God wanted me to hear. Why because I was reading it according to my own intellect and my own will to find the answers I was seeking that fit what I wanted to hear basically in some cases.

OHHHHH did God grab ahold of me and set me straight on that and I am so thankful for that moment when I realized the importance of not reading Gods word according to myself but after praying and asking God to reveal His word to me. What a difference. Those same very scriptures that I could read something into took on such a different interpretation than previously.

An example is when we read something and are thinking of someone else and think.. mmmmhmmm yup thats right that applies to them... versus reading that same scripture and think.. oooo ouch... Lord help me in this area. More likely than not, the first one is led by our flesh and the second one by the Spirit of God.

[Saintmarks]

Originally Posted by mari4him

Hiram, your comment appears to take something in my post out of context and make it appear as what was being said was something that in all actuality is not what is meant. Of course we should be in God's presence at all times and not only during praise and worship. To assume that I would mean the opposite in any way is absurd.

However, to clarify what I meant is that during praise and worship is a time when I myself at least, shut out the rest of the world completely. Try to remove from my consciousness any worries, my to do list, my bills, etc etc. You know all those other little life things that we tend to have to give some thought to during the day. Yes, those things I try to put out of my mind as I simply enter, should I say deeper and more focused, and rest in His presence and in His presence alone. Me and God, nothing else exists in that moment.

But yes I do agree with you, being in His presence on a daily basis is where we should be.

Mari, I saw where you were replying and in a discussion on what happens in a particular church service and were relating your personal experience of what happens in the particular corporate worship service you attend.

No one should have taken those remarks out of context and if they did I believe are just looking to argue. You were very clear in the context of your discussion and it is nothing but absurd that anyone should accuse you of being conscious of God only on Sundays.

Your posts are very uplifting and have blessed me. Some just want to be argumentative about anything it seems.

[Hiram]

Originally Posted by forest beekeeper

1. We learn from Acts, chapter 2, in the original outpouring, in verses 1 to 4, that; on the day of Pentecost, believers were fiilled with the power from on high, clothed with this power from on high, which is the new birth, the holy spirit, Christ in you. And when they were filled, it says, "and they spoke in tongues." And then, you'll remember, there were only Jews on the day of Pentecost that received.

3. Then in Acts, chapter 9, the third great record in God's wonderful, matchless word. In this chapter, it's the apostle Paul. Paul who, when he was on the road to Damascus, got born again. And Ananias, just a simple disciple, not a head of the church from Jerusalem, no Peter, no John, no bishop, no top echelon brass, just a simple disciple. Laid his hands on the apostle, Paul, he got healed, physically, and, according to I Corinthians chapter 14, verse 18, the apostle Paul says, "I speak in tongues more than ye all."


4. The forth record is the record of the Gentiles in Acts, chapter 10, some 15 - 18 - 20 years after the original outpouring in Acts, chapter 2, this chapter occurred. Where Cornelius had sent to Joppa to get Simon Peter down. And Simon Peter, when he comes, finds Cornelius and the whole household gathered together, waiting to hear the Word of God. Not waiting for private opinion, not waiting to hear the latest news report as to what's going on on the frontiers out yonder. He said, "We want to hear one thing, what God has commanded you to speak." And so Peter starts preaching, and while Peter's preaching, giving them the Word of God, Cornelius believes what he hears, he starts speaking in tongues. His lovely wife, she believes, she speaks in tongues. There's his sons, his daughters All over the whole household; all spoke in tongues. And Peter stands back, astonished, and the six brethren behind him just shook. Why? because they heard them speak in Tongues, magnifying God. That's what convinced Peter and the six brethren, and that's what convinced the Jerusalem council when Peter and the rest of those six brethren appeared before them. That's what convinced them, was the speaking in tongues, not the water baptism, not the hours in prayer, For they heard THEM speak in tongues and magnify God.

5. Acts 19. a group of Christians who are born again of God's Spirit in Ephesus, really walking but not knowing anything but water baptism. Paul comes in, lays his hands on them, ministers to them so they get rid of the cause -- the symptom's removed, they spoke in tongues and magnified God.

Five records in the Word of God, that's all, just five.

Just five records in the Word of God, no more, no less.

Four of those five state, without any hesitation, that, when they were born again and received the gift, pneuma hagion, the one thing they did was they spoke in tongues. They, themselves, spoke in tongues, but what they spoke was as the Spirit gave it to them, to their spirit. One place says, just one of the five, says that Simon saw something. Well, what did he see? You know good and well what he saw. He saw the manifestation, Speaking in tongues.

God's Word to the church is: "I would ye all spake in tongues." God says in Corinthians, it's the will of God for YOU to speak in tongues. And it says, furthermore, that this is a COMMANDMENT of the
LORD!

Acts 8:7-11 tells about a man named Simon who had previously influenced these people with his sorcery and tricks.

Acts 8:12-14 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done. Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

As we see by the above scripture, Peter and John were sent.
And continue bellow, the Samarians received the Holy Spirit from the laying of apostles hands.

Acts 8:15-17 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

It is clear, however, that while Philip could preach, confirm the truth he spoke with miracles, baptize and thus lead others to salvation, he could not impart the gifts of the Holy Spirit to the new converts.
Prior to the completion of the New Testament, and the destruction of the temple, it was necessary for new converts to be endowed with these gifts so that they would have access to the truth.

Acts 8:18-19 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, saying, "Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit."

So as we have a closer look here we see it is the laying on of the Apostles hands that the Holy Spirit was given. Even though Philip was there to begin with, it took the Apostles to do this work!

Philip goes down to Samaria and he preaches Christ unto them. And those who have been influenced by spiritualism, and lived under devil spirits, and been under the control of a man operated by devil spirits, they get born again. And Simon, the sorcerer himself, gets born again of God's Spirit. And when these people in Samaria were born again, it says, "and
Simon saw." Simon saw--you cannot see spirit, what did Simon see?
He saw the external manifestation of the holy spirit indwelling in those beleivers.

No Simon did not see this. Read the scripture. He saw Philip.

Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done.

Those believers did NOT receive the Holy Spirit. They only received the word of Christ, were baptized and witnessed the miracles that followed that Philip was performing, confirming the word. You are reading something into this that does not exists. When the Apostles only heard that Samaria had received the word, then only did they send Peter and John to them. Then only, and only then, did they receive the Spirit. Samaria had to have the Apostles lay hands on them. Read your scripture for yourself. Next time don't waste my time with your half hearted research, and fake "gifts". If you had "gifts" you would have a spirit to interpret scripture. As it stands you can't interpret even the most rudimentary elements.

The word has already been confirmed. We don't need fake miracles and trinkets to help us believe in a false Christ.

Acts 8:5-6 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria and preached Christ to them. And the multitudes with one accord heeded the things spoken by Philip, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.

So we can see that by the above, the Spirit did come as the Apostles were "sent". Philip was there, giving the the good news about Christ. He did not impart the Holy Spirit on the people of Samaria. Also, interesting that they were with one accord, heeding the things spoken by Philip.

[joedrsaved]

One thing that has happened and has already been addressed is so much denominationalism. Some aspects of denomination is OK because doctrine does have to be clearly stated and clearly defined. But since there are so many conflicting views about scripture, it's obvious that lots of people must be wrong about some things.

It's ultra important for the Church to realize this and to also realize that only GOD can reveal the Truth to us. It's urgently needed for clergy and all Christians to pray and overcome the errors of divisional ism and false doctrines.

We must understand what the second beast is written about in the book of Revelation. It has the outward appearance of a lamb, which means it poses as a Christian. But it speaks like a dragon. It is a very sneaky liar and deceiver.

So many are decieved today. But remember, only JESUS is the Truth. Divisions in the body of CHRIST are a sure and certain sign of problems which must be addressed. The clergy and all concerned Christians need to take a step up in the LORD.

[mari4him]

Originally Posted by Saintmarks

Mari, I saw where you were replying and in a discussion on what happens in a particular church service and were relating your personal experience of what happens in the particular corporate worship service you attend.

No one should have taken those remarks out of context and if they did I believe are just looking to argue. You were very clear in the context of your discussion and it is nothing but absurd that anyone should accuse you of being conscious of God only on Sundays.

Your posts are very uplifting and have blessed me. Some just want to be argumentative about anything it seems.

Thank you Saintmarks, you have blessed and encouraged me today with your comment.

And I do agree with you that some just like to try to find an argument out of anything and everything. Either that or just appear to be more holy and spiritual than anyone else. Self-righteousness if you will.

In any case I really appreciate your comment and am glad that I have in some small way been able to be uplifting and a blessing to you. Thats what God would have us all be to one another. So thank you.

[meerkat2]

Originally Posted by joedrsaved

One thing that has happened and has already been addressed is so much denominationalism. Some aspects of denomination is OK because doctrine does have to be clearly stated and clearly defined. But since there are so many conflicting views about scripture, it's obvious that lots of people must be wrong about some things.

It's ultra important for the Church to realize this and to also realize that only GOD can reveal the Truth to us. It's urgently needed for clergy and all Christians to pray and overcome the errors of divisional ism and false doctrines.

We must understand what the second beast is written about in the book of Revelation. It has the outward appearance of a lamb, which means it poses as a Christian. But it speaks like a dragon. It is a very sneaky liar and deceiver.

So many are decieved today. But remember, only JESUS is the Truth. Divisions in the body of CHRIST are a sure and certain sign of problems which must be addressed. The clergy and all concerned Christians need to take a step up in the LORD.

In Revelation Jesus says "Come out of her my people" What is Jesus telling his people to come out of? I believe it is the many faces of religion. It has to do with the mark of the beast - the mark of the beast is to do with beliefs and actions.

We have had 2000 years of doctrine and tradition and crusades and division and force and I don't believe that Jesus came to set up another religion to replace the religion of Judaism - Judaism had been corrupted with traditions, and christianity seems to have gone the same way.

Sometimes I feel like an outsider looking in - there is so much division in what christians believe and do. Late last year when I seriously started searching for truth I was asked if I was going to side with "christians" by a devout christian and very good friend, and I told her that I would stand for the truth.

I am drawn to God and truth, and I am human and prone to depression and anxiety and jealousy and anger.

I am wondering how much of the bible has traditions of men inserted in to it. There seems to be a catch 22 that the christian faith relies on the bible as the inspired word of God so there can not be any errors in it so if anyone says there are errors in it they must be lying because it is the inspired word of God. If there are errors in the bible that does not mean that God does not exist and that he is not the creator of all. In Jer 8:8 it says "How do ye say We are wise and the law of the LORD is with us Lo certainly in vain made he it the pen of the scribes is in vain" Is this saying that the scribes wrote lies?

Jesus said if the blind lead the blind both will fall into the ditch, everyone thinks that they are not blind that all other denominations have varying degress of blindness or are being misled.

[Saintmarks]

Originally Posted by meerkat2

In Revelation Jesus says "Come out of her my people" What is Jesus telling his people to come out of? I believe it is the many faces of religion. It has to do with the mark of the beast - the mark of the beast is to do with beliefs and actions.

We have had 2000 years of doctrine and tradition and crusades and division and force and I don't believe that Jesus came to set up another religion to replace the religion of Judaism - Judaism had been corrupted with traditions, and christianity seems to have gone the same way.

Sometimes I feel like an outsider looking in - there is so much division in what christians believe and do. Late last year when I seriously started searching for truth I was asked if I was going to side with "christians" by a devout christian and very good friend, and I told her that I would stand for the truth.

I am drawn to God and truth, and I am human and prone to depression and anxiety and jealousy and anger.

I am wondering how much of the bible has traditions of men inserted in to it. There seems to be a catch 22 that the christian faith relies on the bible as the inspired word of God so there can not be any errors in it so if anyone says there are errors in it they must be lying because it is the inspired word of God. If there are errors in the bible that does not mean that God does not exist and that he is not the creator of all. In Jer 8:8 it says "How do ye say We are wise and the law of the LORD is with us Lo certainly in vain made he it the pen of the scribes is in vain" Is this saying that the scribes wrote lies?

Jesus said if the blind lead the blind both will fall into the ditch, everyone thinks that they are not blind that all other denominations have varying degress of blindness or are being misled.

Here is the dichotomy I see in light of your post. We are called as Christians to fellowship, to love neighbor as ourself, to be one with each other as Christ and the Father are one.

However, until we reach that perfect fellowship after this life, we still have the effects of sin, we still live in a fallen world, still inhabit a body of flesh, still have to interact with others in the same condition.

On one hand, church life is a vital part of the Christian walk. On the other hand we will one day stand before the Lord and have to give an account of what we did with the glorious gift given to us in Jesus and his death on the cross and blaming what anyone else did or didn't do won't get us far.

If we are looking to any group, individual church, denomination, or non-denomination for our sense of identity and rightness before the Lord, we are deceived. The posts I see here are pointing out the flaws in different doctrines and denominations. So what? None of them are perfect. If they were, then Jesus wouldn't have to wait any longer and could come claim his bride.

So what are we to do? I say pray and ask God to place you in a group of believers that will walk with you, provide a place of safety and belonging, where you are fed the truth of His word and where you can also serve in return. I have lived in many places and there has always been a group that God has placed me in which met these criteria.

Psalm 68:6 God places the lonely in families;he sets the prisoners free and gives them joy.But he makes the rebellious live in a sun-scorched land.

I firmly believe that if you come to the Lord with a humble heart, he will lead you to a fellowship of believers that will be a family for you. Are churches perfect? No. Are families perfect? No. Are you and I perfect? No, but he still loves us enough to die for us and bring us into his family.

Let's stop nitpicking each other and come back to a simplicity of loving the Lord, preaching His gospel and loving each other. Let's pray for God to bless the church down the road and stop worrying about how they aren't doing things right. Jesus is the head of the body, his church, it is his job to perfect her, not ours.

[Hiram]

Originally Posted by sun queen

Hmm... I think all "Believers"/ Christians should follow the whole counsel of the Word. I mean Jesus never said the Pentecostal's, or the Baptist or any other denomination was better than another. HE did not sanction such religious divisions. HE said that HE will return for the Church, HIS Bride... I don't think there is any room for religion in that.

but by the Spirit... I believe this scripture encompasses religion or denominations too. Believers need to remember only the the blood that Jesus the Christ shed on the cross atoned for sin, and there is no room for denominational divisions in that either.

We are not saved by our own works, but by Godly works.

Jesus himself defined “belief” as a work of God!

John 6:28-29, "Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

James 2:24, "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

James 2:17, "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."

James 2:20, "But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?"

In other words, the relationship between faith and works is so close that in fact they are one entity.

James 2:26, "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

2 Timothy 3:17, "That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."

[mari4him]

Originally Posted by Saintmarks

Here is the dichotomy I see in light of your post. We are called as Christians to fellowship, to love neighbor as ourself, to be one with each other as Christ and the Father are one.

However, until we reach that perfect fellowship after this life, we still have the effects of sin, we still live in a fallen world, still inhabit a body of flesh, still have to interact with others in the same condition.

On one hand, church life is a vital part of the Christian walk. On the other hand we will one day stand before the Lord and have to give an account of what we did with the glorious gift given to us in Jesus and his death on the cross and blaming what anyone else did or didn't do won't get us far.

If we are looking to any group, individual church, denomination, or non-denomination for our sense of identity and rightness before the Lord, we are deceived. The posts I see here are pointing out the flaws in different doctrines and denominations. So what? None of them are perfect. If they were, then Jesus wouldn't have to wait any longer and could come claim his bride.

So what are we to do? I say pray and ask God to place you in a group of believers that will walk with you, provide a place of safety and belonging, where you are fed the truth of His word and where you can also serve in return. I have lived in many places and there has always been a group that God has placed me in which met these criteria.

Psalm 68:6 God places the lonely in families;he sets the prisoners free and gives them joy.But he makes the rebellious live in a sun-scorched land.

I firmly believe that if you come to the Lord with a humble heart, he will lead you to a fellowship of believers that will be a family for you. Are churches perfect? No. Are families perfect? No. Are you and I perfect? No, but he still loves us enough to die for us and bring us into his family.

Let's stop nitpicking each other and come back to a simplicity of loving the Lord, preaching His gospel and loving each other. Let's pray for God to bless the church down the road and stop worrying about how they aren't doing things right. Jesus is the head of the body, his church, it is his job to perfect her, not ours.

Very nicely put and reading it I could not help but be reminded of "before you point out the speck in your brother's eye, take out the plank from your own eye" paraphrased a bit. Could this not apply to churches as well as whole and members of varying denominations towards others. I think Jesus wants us to constantly be looking within ourselves, to our own lives, to our own walk and make the changes we need to make within ourselves rather than be pointing out what flaws we may see in others. I think this could very well apply to all the varying denominations.

I mean what is the alternative, that we, as Christians, forsake the assembly because no matter where we go to assemble we are in fact partaking in a denomination of sorts, even as I have mentioned, non-denominational churches, in and of themselves they are also a seperation, a division. If we were to forsake the assembling together this leaves us to being islands of our own. Where is the accountability there. Where is the "as iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another". Where is the fellowship among believers and where is the building of godly relationships where brothers and sisters can uplift each other in times of trouble through prayer and join in the rejoicing with one another in times of victory.

You are absolutely right. It is Jesus that cleans up and perfects His church, not us. All we can do is pray and follow God's lead where He leads us. I absolutely believe, beyond any shadow of a doubt, that the churches that I have been a member of, attending regularly, have been at the will of God for whatever season of time it was that I was there. When time came to move to another congregation, for whatever reason that was, I absolutely believe that God led me to where He wanted me to be. And I can honestly say that I, as my children and family, have received nothing but blessings and spiritual growth from these places of worship. I thank God for that. For His guidance and for the move of His spirit within my life.

[Saintmarks]

Originally Posted by mari4him

Very nicely put and reading it I could not help but be reminded of "before you point out the speck in your brother's eye, take out the plank from your own eye" paraphrased a bit. Could this not apply to churches as well as whole and members of varying denominations towards others. I think Jesus wants us to constantly be looking within ourselves, to our own lives, to our own walk and make the changes we need to make within ourselves rather than be pointing out what flaws we may see in others. I think this could very well apply to all the varying denominations.

I mean what is the alternative, that we, as Christians, forsake the assembly because no matter where we go to assemble we are in fact partaking in a denomination of sorts, even as I have mentioned, non-denominational churches, in and of themselves they are also a seperation, a division. If we were to forsake the assembling together this leaves us to being islands of our own. Where is the accountability there. Where is the "as iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another". Where is the fellowship among believers and where is the building of godly relationships where brothers and sisters can uplift each other in times of trouble through prayer and join in the rejoicing with one another in times of victory.

You are absolutely right. It is Jesus that cleans up and perfects His church, not us. All we can do is pray and follow God's lead where He leads us. I absolutely believe, beyond any shadow of a doubt, that the churches that I have been a member of, attending regularly, have been at the will of God for whatever season of time it was that I was there. When time came to move to another congregation, for whatever reason that was, I absolutely believe that God led me to where He wanted me to be. And I can honestly say that I, as my children and family, have received nothing but blessings and spiritual growth from these places of worship. I thank God for that. For His guidance and for the move of His spirit within my life.

I don't think denominations are bad in themselves, but denominationalism is. Meaning putting the denomination and its beliefs forefront. I know of mainline denominational churches where the word is taught and the love of God is evident and peoples lives are changed. It is not because of the denomination, but because the word is taught and the power of God is moving in the midst.

I don't think God ordained denominations as such, I believe the unity of His church is something to pray and believe He will do, but neither do I think he is as indignant about them as some like to want him to be. I feel like He treats them like the old metaphor of lemonade. We took his church, made lemons out of it, he takes the lemon back and makes the lemonade.

Many denomination came into existence because a believer got a revelation of truth, it did not have a place to fit within the structure of the current church and a new move got birthed. Luther and Wesley I mentioned earlier fit this example. The danger is when followers build a monument to that move and don't continue to move forward with what the Spirit is currently doing and moving in the church. Kind of like Peter wanting to build a tabernacle on the mount of transfiguration. Jesus wasn't into that, it was time to move on to the next thing.

The attitude of some Christians who eschew belonging to a church does bother me. None are perfect, but I feel if you truly love someone, you love what he loves. Jesus loves his church. He died for his church. The church is who he is coming back for as his bride. Some I know are always finding fault with a church and won't join one until they find a perfect church. The problem is, as soon as they join it, it won't be perfect anymore.