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Old 10-04-2008, 03:43 PM
 
Location: New Zealand
11,701 posts, read 3,556,806 times
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I have been thinking about this a lot.

I have not been a Saturday or Sunday worshipper up to now, I did try a couple of Sunday churches but the services seemed very ritualised and more about us than God.

Jesus says to keep the commandments and if you break the least of these you will be the least in heaven - but if you do and teach you shall be called great in heaven.

I am coming to the conclusion that the Sabbath is not only between the Jews and God it is a sign between God and any who say that they believe in him - his Israel of the spirit.

Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it" (Exodus 20:8–11).

This says that the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord your God, and that God blessed and hallowed the Sabbath - from what I can see trying to transfer it to the Sunday is a sign of disobedience. Nowhere is there a transfer of Gods sabbath which he blessed to the Sunday.

This day is Gods Sabbath and a part of honoring and obeying God would be to respect his command.

I am looking at this site at the moment.

http://www.tomorrowsworld.org/cgi-bi...tem=1104416816


Quote:
The Fourth Commandment Stated

We have already discussed the prevalent sin of putting another god in place of the true God. We learned that God commands us to worship Him directly and to avoid using any image, picture or physical object to "remind" us of the great Creator, or as an "aid" to worship. And we were warned against the vain use of the name of Almighty God, which stands for His position, His character, His power, His office as the great Ruler of this entire universe. The fourth commandment completes the first section of the Decalogue, which deals with man’s relationship to God. It provides for the perpetual observance of a sign of the relationship between God and man.
Jesus also said that Sabbath was made for man (not just the Jews) not man for the Sabbath.

Last edited by Meerkat2; 10-04-2008 at 03:55 PM..
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Old 10-04-2008, 05:08 PM
 
Location: Purgatory
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Keeping the Sabbath may be all well and good if you work a 'normal' job. I don't work Monday through Friday, 9-5, and unfortunately people don't stop getting sick just because it's Sunday (I'm one of those 'Sunday Church Go-ers' when I go to Church). So, would you say there are certain 'provisions' for this? (I'm not going to stop working the job I love, I'm just curious what your take on it would be)
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Old 10-04-2008, 05:37 PM
 
Location: Pilot Point, TX
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Jesus is our Sabbath, live in the Vine. Don't concern yourself with days (Gal 4:9-10), but rather do His will. If we live every day unto Him, you won't be convicted if you need to pull sheep (Mat 12:11-12).

Last edited by little elmer; 10-04-2008 at 05:38 PM.. Reason: more
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Old 10-04-2008, 05:58 PM
 
Location: New Zealand
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Morale Officer,

I am thinking that we need to be aware of what we do and why we do it.

Jesus says to worship God in Spirit and in truth, and we are warned that there will be great deception - the "beast" will deceive the whole world. He healed on the Sabbath and told the man he healed to take up his bed and go home. This upset the pharisees who taught their traditions in place or in addition to Gods Laws. Gods laws are all about repect/reverence to him as creator of all and God of all and respect/love for our fellow man.

Mercy will be shown to those who show mercy.
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Old 12-08-2008, 10:25 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
Jesus is our Sabbath, live in the Vine. Don't concern yourself with days (Gal 4:9-10), but rather do His will. If we live every day unto Him, you won't be convicted if you need to pull sheep (Mat 12:11-12).
ASK YOURSELF: Do I abide in Christ, The Vine?

THE TEACHING OF JESUS:
At the Last Supper, Jesus taught His disciples about our spiritual relationship with Him. Our Lord used the branch and the vine to illustrate our complete dependence upon Him. He explained that the branch can bear no fruit without the constant flow of life from the vine. Jesus said to them:

"I am the vine, you are the branches. He who ABIDES in Me, and I in him,
he it is that bears much fruit..." "If a man does not ABIDE in Me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and BURNED." John 15:5 RSV

ABIDE is from the Greek "Meno." It means to remain in, to stay, to dwell.

THE SCRIPTURES DEFINE HOW TO "ABIDE" IN CHRIST:
"All who keep His commandments ABIDE in Him, and He in them."
1 John 3:24 RSV

"If you keep My commandments you will ABIDE in My Love."
John 15:10 RSV

The church of today is empty of true spiritual strength and bears little resemblance to the church of the first century because it refuses to ABIDE in Christ. The scriptures plainly teach that the Father promises to answer only the prayers of those who ABIDE in Christ and obey His law:

"If you ABIDE in Me, and My WORDS abide in you, ask whatever you will, and it shall be done for you." John 15:7 RSV

"And we receive from Him whatever we ask, because we KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS." 1 John 3:22 RSV

"If one turns away his ear from hearing THE LAW, even his prayer is an abomination." Proverbs 28:9 RSV

A thousand may pray until their knees are bloody, but if they are not keeping His commandments, God says their prayer is an abomination to Him. Yet the prayers of only one man who abides in Christ can change the lives and circumstances of many:

"The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much."
James 5:16 KJV

"Little children, let no one deceive you. He who DOES RIGHT, is righteous." 1 John 3:7 RSV

God's word is painfully clear. If one does not keep His commandments, one does not ABIDE in Christ. If one does not ABIDE in Him, God does not answer his prayer; and he will become like the withered branch, cast forth, thrown into the fire and burned.
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Old 12-08-2008, 10:55 AM
 
302 posts, read 550,952 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
Jesus is our Sabbath, live in the Vine. Don't concern yourself with days (Gal 4:9-10), but rather do His will. If we live every day unto Him, you won't be convicted if you need to pull sheep (Mat 12:11-12).
GALATIANS 4:10-11 WHAT DID PAUL MEAN?

What did Paul mean when he said: "Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain." Gal 4:10-11 (KJV)

Those two sentences of Paul are used by some Christians to justify their disobedience to The Sabbath Commandment of God. Sometimes Paul's words are hard to understand, but he always upheld The Ten Commandments. So with that in mind, what does "Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years" mean in context?

From the text, we can prove that Paul was warning Gentile believers to not serve sin. Before they joined themselves to the LORD, through faith in Christ, Gentiles did not know the Creator or observe The Sabbath that honors Him. Instead, they were children of the devil who were in bondage to demons as they worshipped the elemental spirits of creation.

(In the astrological wheel of fortune, four elements are believed to be the basic ingredients of the universe: earth, air, fire and water.) In Galatians Paul says:

"Formerly, when you did not know God, [See Notes: Eph 2:12] YOU WERE IN BONDAGE TO BEINGS that by nature are no gods; but now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and beggarly ELEMENTAL SPIRITS, whose slaves you want to be once more?" Gal 4:8-9 (RSV)

When Paul said: "ye observe days", it could not mean The Sabbath Day because Gentiles couldn't "turn back" to Sabbath observance. Therefore that verse has to refer to some Gentiles in the Galatian churches who were falling away from the obedience of the faith. They were going back to their old way of life when they served demons with their idolatry, witchcraft --and ASTROLOGY.

Astrology is the practice and system of predicting events by the position and occult influence on human affairs of the sun, moon, and planets. Observers of times, horoscopes and fortune-telling are an abomination to God. (See Deut 18:9-14 "observer of times") That is why Paul speaks with so much concern when he says:

"Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain." Gal 4:10-11 (KJV)

Certainly, observing days, months, times and years in the verse above has absolutely nothing to do with The Sabbath --or even the feast days of the Jews because we have two historical records of Paul observing feast days ...

"And we [Paul] sailed away from Philippi after the **days of unleavened bread**, and came unto them to Troas in five days; where we abode seven days ...

For Paul had determined to sail by Ephesus, because he would not spend the time in Asia: for he hasted, if it were possible for him, to be at Jerusalem **the day of Pentecost** ." Acts 20:6, 16 (KJV)

Paul testified to both Jews and Gentiles repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. As a faithful minister, he upheld The Ten Commandments with these words:

"Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but {what matters is}the KEEPING OF THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD."
1 Cor 7:19 (NAS)

Harold and Donna Kupp
* NOTES Eph 2:12 (KJV)
"That at that time ye [Gentiles] were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and **without God in the world:**"


ELEMENTS : "The essential substances of the physical world <2 Pet. 3:10,12>. The apostle Paul also used the word to refer to the demonic spirits or powers behind the physical universe <Gal. 4:3,9>."
Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary

COSMIC DEMONS stoicheia
Excerpts from Christian Words by Nigel Turner p.88, 90. Secular Greek: "In Greek physics it stands for the smallest division into which matter may be analysed, found as far back as Plato, if not before, for he mentions the primary stoicheia of which the human frame is composed (Thaetetus 201E), and the physical stoicheia (fire, water, earth, air) of
the universe (Timaeus 48B)."

Christian Greek: "Clemen reasoned that what St. Paul intended were astral deities, the spirits dwelling in the physical elements and in the heavenly bodies ... St. Paul's 'we' may well include Jewish readers who in fact practiced astrology, even though it was forbidden them."
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Old 12-08-2008, 09:05 PM
 
302 posts, read 550,952 times
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Default The lost coin

THE LOST COIN

It was a custom in ancient Israel for a bride-groom to give his beloved coins to wear on her veil. They were his betrothal gift for her to keep until He returned to take her to his Father's house. Jesus has given his church Ten Commandments. He said:

"If you love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15)

This parable of Jesus has a personal meaning for me as I rejoice with the angels of heaven and tell my friends and neighbors that I have found the long, lost coin ...

"I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance. Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it? And when she hath found it, she calleth her friends and her neighbours together, saying, Rejoice with me; for I have found the piece which I had lost." Luke 15:7-9 (KJV)

Donna Kupp

The Fourth Commandment:

"Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and *do all thy work*: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and **rested the seventh day**: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."
Exod 20:8-11 (KJV)
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Old 12-10-2008, 01:25 AM
 
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Default Romans 14:5-6 what did paul mean?

THE CHURCHMEN vs THE SABBATH
and
FUTILE AND USEFUL FASTS

Many churchmen use Romans 14:5-6 as proof that New Testament believers no longer have an obligation to keep the Sabbath day holy. So let us examine those two verses, just as a Judge would consider evidence in his courtroom, and then decide whether or not they testify against Sabbath keeping. Paul wrote:

"One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let very man be fully persuaded in his own mind. He that regardeth [observeth] the day regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks." Romans 14:5-6

The Judge would ask: "Where is the Sabbath mentioned in those verses?". The Sabbath is not mentioned there, nor in the entire book of Romans! No court in the land would allow verses that do not mention the Sabbath to be used as evidence in an argument against the Sabbath - so why should we? You see, Paul could not have been talking about keeping the Sabbath day holy because obedience to God's law is not optional. It is ludicrous to suggest that any of the Ten Commandments can be disobeyed "unto the Lord". Think of the absurdity of saying "He that stealeth, to the Lord he stealeth; and he that stealeth not, to the Lord he stealeth not."

What then was Paul talking about? He was talking about fast days. The whole 14th chapter of Romans is about food and how people's beliefs about eating should not be interfered with. The fast days could be observed according to each believer's conscience. A man could eat -or not eat, keep the day - or not keep it. It is as simple as this: Each man could observe FAST DAYS, or not observe them, according to his own convictions. He that does not eat, regards the day. He that eats, does not regard the day.

The "days" that Paul was referring to were the traditional fast days mentioned in Zechariah 7:5-6. The Gentile Christians in Rome did not keep them because they had no cultural interest in the anniversary fasts that were observed during the Jew's captivity in Babylon. *1

Even the Jews themselves had different convictions about the observance of those days - because those fasts were never commanded by God. After the captivity (when the temple was being rebuilt) the men of Bethel also wondered if they should observe these fasts unto the Lord. For example, they asked Zechariah:

"Shall I weep in the fifth month and abstain, as I have done these many years?" (Zech 7:2-3.)

When you read Zechariah's answer, notice the striking similarity of his words with those of Paul to the church at Rome ...

COMPARE Zechariah 7:5-6

"...When ye FASTED and mourned in the fifth and seventh month, even those seventy years, DID YE AT ALL FAST UNTO ME, even to me [The Lord]?

And when ye did EAT, and when ye did drink, did ye not EAT FOR YOURSELVES, and drink for yourselves?"

WITH Romans 14:6-7

"He that regardeth the [fast] day regardeth it UNTO THE LORD; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it.

He that EATETH, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that EATETH NOT, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
For none of us LIVETH TO HIMSELF, and no man dieth to himself."


If you were the Judge in the case of the CHURCHMEN VERSUS THE SABBATH, would you be willing to say that Paul had cancelled one of the commandments of God based on the evidence you find in the 14th chapter of Romans?

In our opinion, the evidence from Romans and Zechariah demands a verdict for Sabbath observance. The church must obey the Fourth Commandment and that is the only decision that will uphold the Law of God. *2

CASE CLOSED!

Harold and Donna Kupp

* Footnotes:
1 These are the four traditional fasts that were mentionedin the book of Zechariah:
1. (The fast of the fourth month) In remembrance of the breaking of the wall of Jerusalem.
2. (The fast of the fifth month) In remembrance of the burning of the temple.
3. (The fast of the seventh month) In remembrance of the killing of Gedaliah, which completed the dispersion.
4. (The fast of the tenth month) In remembrance of the beginning of the siege of Jerusalem.
See - Jer 52:6, Jer 52:12-13, 2 Kings 25:25, 2 Kings 25:1

It is of interest to note that those dates commemorate the judgments of God upon a people who refused to keep the Sabbath Day holy. (See Jer 17:19-27)

2 "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God..." Ex 20:8-10

Part II FUTILE AND USEFUL FASTS

There are two kinds of fasts; the fasts unto ourselves (which are futile) and the fasts unto the Lord (which are useful). Futile fasts come from a selfish motive. Some are simply hunger strikes that are contrived to influence God so He will give us what we want --or soften his punishment for our disobedience.

Zachariah rebuked the men of Bethel for the way the Jews had observed their fasts during the captivity. They mourned the loss of their temple, its riches, and the desolations of Jerusalem but neglected the condition of their hearts.

Without a broken and contrite heart, fasting becomes a cloak for sin. So the men, who were rebuilding Jerusalem, were told to listen to the former prophets who demanded obedience to God's law. (Zech 7:5-14)

Before the captivity, the prophet, Jeremiah had warned the Jews that if they did not repent of their sins, they would be in captivity for seventy years. Because of their disobedience, the many fasts of the captivity proved to be futile. God did not alter the severity of his punishment and
Israel served every single year of its sentence. (Jeremiah 25:11, Dan 9:2)

Throughout history, the children of God have been told that fasting without obedience is meaningless. Here is what Isaiah and an early church father had to say about fasting:

"Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness ... to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor [brethren] that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him?" Isaiah 58:6-7

"I will teach thee what is a complete fast and acceptable to the Lord ... God desireth not such a vain fast [the accustomed fasts] but fast thou [unto God] such a fast as this; DO NO WICKEDNESS IN THY LIFE, AND SERVE THE LORD WITH A PURE HEART; OBSERVE HIS COMMANDMENTS..." Shepherd of Hermas (See notes below)

The Biblical and historical understanding of the fast that God requires has to do with righteousness; not food. God has promised that he will bless those who keep His commandments - and curse those who do not. (whether we fast or not) Deut 28

Historical notes
J B Lightfoot, The Apostolic Fathers, p 203, Baker Book House 1956
According to Lightfoot, "The work [Shepherd of Hermas] is found in general circulation in the Eastern and Western churches, soon after the middle of the second century ... It is quoted by Irenaeus in Gaul, by Tertullian in Africa, by Clement and Origen in Alexandria. All these fathers - even Tertullian, before he became a Montanist - either cite it as scripture, or assign to it a special authority as in some sense inspired
and quasi-canonical."

Jamieson Fausset & Brown's Commentary on Zech 7:5 points out the difference between the futile fasts of the captivity and the true "fast unto the Lord" of Romans 14:6, we read:

"did ye ...fast unto me? --No: it was to gratify yourselves in hypocritical will-worship. If it had been "unto me" ye would have "separated yourselves: not only from food, but from your sins (Isaiah 58:3-7). They falsely made the fast an end, intrinsically meritorious in itself, not a means towards God's glory in their sanctification ... (Romans 14:6)"
Jamieson Fausset & Brown Bible Commentary Vol. 11, p.855 1888
dk
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Old 12-10-2008, 06:19 AM
 
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Sabbath is evryday of the week, the Sabbath did not carry over to the New Testament.
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Old 12-10-2008, 10:57 AM
 
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Default The new covenant includes the sabbath commandment

THE ORIGINAL COVENANT

Without understanding the basis of the OLD Covenant, we cannot understand the basis of the NEW Covenant. The shocking truth is that despite unequivocal Biblical testimony many who believe in the Bible refuse to accept the fact that the New Covenant is a renewal of the original Covenant Yahweh made with Israel - the Ten Commandments - nothing more and nothing less.

THE ORIGINAL COVENANT - TEN COMMANDMENTS
Deut 4:13
"So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone. (NKJ)

Nothing is stated more clearly in the Bible "...His covenant...the ten commandments...on two tablets of stone AND HE ADDED NO MORE:

Deut 5:22
"These words the LORD spoke to all your assembly, in the mountain from the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud voice; AND HE ADDED NO MORE. And He wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me." (NKJ)

TEN COMMANDMENTS AND HE ADDED NO MORE! And yet this simple truth is ignored or rejected by the vast majority of those who claim that the Bible is the word of God. The original Covenant was NOT the 613 commandments, judgments and statutes stated in the Torah - it was the 10 Commandments - period!


If one does not understand that fact it is impossible to understand the teachings of Jesus, the apostles and in particular the writings of Paul concerning the New Covenant. The laws of the "New Covenant" are exactly the same as the original Covenant - the Ten Commandments. The New Covenant is a renewal of the original - not a replacement.

What is new about the New Covenant?
1. A new sacrifice.
OLD - ratified by the blood of animals
NEW - ratified by the blood of the Messiah

2. A new method of communication.
OLD - indirectly through the Priest
NEW - directly through the Spirit

3. A new way to write the law of Yahweh.
OLD - written on stone
NEW - written on the heart

If that is true then what did the apostle Paul mean when he said:

Gal 3:19 "Wherefore then serveth the law? IT WAS ADDED because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made;"

Was Paul speaking of the Ten Commandments? Absolutely not! Paul was referring to the SECOND Covenant Yahweh made with Israel AFTER THEY BROKE THE FIRST.- not the original Ten Commandment Covenant. The Mosaic law was a second covenant (with a second set of tablets) which was made with Israel before they entered Caanan.

Deut 29:1
These are the terms of the covenant the LORD commanded Moses to make with the Israelites in Moab, IN ADDITION to the covenant he had made with them at Horeb.

"...the covenant...in Moab...in addition...

There were TWO covenants made with Israel -the first was the Ten Commandments "and he added no more". The second was made in Moab
and included the 613 commandments, judgments and statutes of the Mosaic law.

After they worshipped the idol, Yahweh was going to destroy the Israelites, but Moses begged the Lord for their forgiveness and the nation was allowed a reprieve, but with a much stricter set of rules designed to keep their minds on obedience to Yahweh's law. This second covenant was the "yoke of bondage."


That is what Paul meant when he said: "Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions" The Mosaic law was added to the original covenant (the Ten Commandments) because of Israel's transgressions.

Harold and Donna Kupp
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