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Old 10-23-2008, 07:32 PM
 
Location: Charlotte, North Carolina
5,137 posts, read 15,122,831 times
Reputation: 1008

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70 leaders approximately asking for the death?

Bush is United States President.
Does he represent everyone's best interest in the US?


"Satan had nothing to do with the crucifixion"

1Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover.

2And the chief priests and scribes sought how they might kill him; for they feared the people.
3Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve. 4And he went his way, and communed with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray him unto them.




Quote:
Originally Posted by jrice View Post
The jewish leaders demanded the death of Jesus, the romans had no choice but to carry it out or fear of a jewish uprising. Satan had nothing to do with the crucifixion, in fact he tempted Jesus so that he wouldnt be crucified
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Old 10-24-2008, 02:13 AM
 
Location: Cicero, NY
625 posts, read 1,605,497 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renriq02 View Post
70 leaders approximately asking for the death?

Bush is United States President.
Does he represent everyone's best interest in the US?


"Satan had nothing to do with the crucifixion"

1Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover.

2And the chief priests and scribes sought how they might kill him; for they feared the people.
3Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve. 4And he went his way, and communed with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray him unto them.

Christ's crucifixion was the fulfillment of the OLd Testament. His crucifixion was going to restart the mechanism for the forgiveness of sins--which would mean no person would be going to Hell. And God, through this crucifixion, showed that God loved mankind so much he was willing to let his Son be killed for them. My question is why would Satan want any of these things? He wouldn't, and he would do everything in his power to prevent such an act from occurring--such as tempting Jesus, and Pilate's indecision( or doubt) in regards to this matter. If anything Jesus was born to be crucified for our sins--God's divine plan at work. And from this perspective Judas was fulfilling God's plan for both his son and mankind, God had hardened his heart like he had done to pharaoh. If this plan was thwarted then Jesus could not have fulfilled his first mission on this earth.

Last edited by jrice; 10-24-2008 at 02:26 AM..
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Old 10-24-2008, 12:30 PM
 
810 posts, read 1,261,318 times
Reputation: 194
I must say...
I stepped away from the computer for a day and am shocked to see that this thread has turned so negative. I guess I shouldn't be shocked, JW's are persecuted (as well as others) all the time.

renriq- your questions have been addressed gracefully and intelligently by Alice. I too responded with biblical references and your explanantion was 'bad translation'.

We disagree. You'll be alright...
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Old 10-24-2008, 12:33 PM
 
Location: Charlotte, North Carolina
5,137 posts, read 15,122,831 times
Reputation: 1008
Why are you assuming that Satan knew God's plan?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrice View Post
Christ's crucifixion was the fulfillment of the OLd Testament. His crucifixion was going to restart the mechanism for the forgiveness of sins--which would mean no person would be going to Hell. And God, through this crucifixion, showed that God loved mankind so much he was willing to let his Son be killed for them. My question is why would Satan want any of these things? He wouldn't, and he would do everything in his power to prevent such an act from occurring--such as tempting Jesus, and Pilate's indecision( or doubt) in regards to this matter. If anything Jesus was born to be crucified for our sins--God's divine plan at work. And from this perspective Judas was fulfilling God's plan for both his son and mankind, God had hardened his heart like he had done to pharaoh. If this plan was thwarted then Jesus could not have fulfilled his first mission on this earth.
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Old 10-24-2008, 12:50 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,468,646 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrice View Post
Christ's crucifixion was the fulfillment of the OLd Testament. His crucifixion was going to restart the mechanism for the forgiveness of sins--
We believe God poured His wrath on Jesus who took our place. Jesus paid our fine. It pleased God to punish Jesus because God hates sin therefore He must punish sin and since Jesus took on Him the sins of the world, then Jesus became sin. Jesus stepped in and paid our fine because that punishment from God was meant for us.

I know JW(s) can't stomach that thought therefore you believe Satan was the one who was pouring it on Jesus. My question is where is that in the bible. Where is the verse that said, it was Satan who was punishing Jesus?
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Old 10-24-2008, 12:52 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,468,646 times
Reputation: 746
Quote:
Originally Posted by beeveenh View Post
I must say...
I stepped away from the computer for a day and am shocked to see that this thread has turned so negative. I guess I shouldn't be shocked, JW's are persecuted (as well as others) all the time.

renriq- your questions have been addressed gracefully and intelligently by Alice. I too responded with biblical references and your explanantion was 'bad translation'.

We disagree. You'll be alright...
Lets be real careful using that word "persecuted" You nor I know the true meaning of the word here in the West. Over 160,000,000 Christians world wide are being persecuted as we speak and we all should pray for them everyday.
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Old 10-24-2008, 12:58 PM
 
Location: Charlotte, North Carolina
5,137 posts, read 15,122,831 times
Reputation: 1008
Persecuted? lolol Yea okay. You tell that to my great grandparents and ancestors who were killed in concentration camps.

Knowing 'orthodox families' who share their 'bedroom behaviors' to a Gentile or anyone period lol
To say you called up a 'Orthodox Rabbi' and he says the word Jehovah is a mockery. I highly believe that Alice is not telling the truth about knowing any Orthodox Jewish families AND conversing with a Orthodox Rabbi.

You or Alice have NOT produced any evidence of where the name Jehovah was originated.

The masoretic texts DO NOT spell out Jehovah or anything similar to it.

Even the Watchtower concur what I'm writing

"NO ONE can say for sure exactly when orthodox Jews ceased to pronounce God's name out loud and instead substituted the Hebrew words for God and Sovereign Lord. Some believe that God's name passed out of everyday use well before Jesus' time. But there is strong evidence that the high priest continued to pronounce it at religious services at the temple—particularly on the day of Atonement—right up until the temple was destroyed in 70 C.E. Hence, when Jesus was on earth, the pronunciation of the name was known, although perhaps it was not widely used."

Why would the High Priest use it at religious services at the temple....PARTICULARLY on Yom Kippur? The Watchtower ALSO cites Philo. Does the Watchtower believe that homosexuality is okay with God?

A mispronunciation (introduced by Christian theologians, but almost entirely disregarded by the Jews) of the Hebrew "Yhwh," the (ineffable) name of God (the Tetragrammaton or "Shem ha-Meforash"). This pronunciation is grammatically impossible; it arose through pronouncing the vowels of the "ḳere" (marginal reading of the Masorites: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/volume7/V07p087004.jpg (broken link) = "Adonay") with the consonants of the "ketib" (text-reading: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/volume7/V07p087005.jpg (broken link) = "Yhwh")—"Adonay" (the Lord) being substituted with one exception wherever Yhwh occurs in the Biblical and liturgical books. "Adonay" presents the vowels "shewa" (the composite http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/volume7/V07p087006.jpg (broken link) under the guttural א becomes simple http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/volume7/V07p087007.jpg (broken link) under the י), "ḥolem," and "ḳameẓ," and these give the reading http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/volume7/V07p087008.jpg (broken link) (= "Jehovah"). Sometimes, when the two names http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/volume7/V07p087009.jpg (broken link) and http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/volume7/V07p087010.jpg (broken link) occur together, the former is pointed with "ḥatef segol" (http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/volume7/V07p087011.jpg (broken link)) under the י —thus, http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/volume7/V07p087012.jpg (broken link) (="Jehovah")—to indicate that in this combination it is to be pronounced "Elohim" (http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/volume7/V07p087013.jpg (broken link)). These substitutions of "Adonay"and "Elohim" for Yhwh were devised to avoid the profanation of the Ineffable Name (hence http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/volume7/V07p088001.jpg (broken link) is also written http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/volume7/V07p088002.jpg (broken link), or even http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/volume7/V07p088003.jpg (broken link), and read "ha-Shem" = "the Name ").

So where was Jehovah originated?

Raymond Martin's (appointed by the Pope)
"Pugio Fidei." Published in 1270

There is no evidence to show that it was used earlier than this.
Unless you care to provide something I don't know?

Neither one of you have provided ANY evidence to show where the name Jehovah was originated.


Quote:
Originally Posted by beeveenh View Post
I must say...
I stepped away from the computer for a day and am shocked to see that this thread has turned so negative. I guess I shouldn't be shocked, JW's are persecuted (as well as others) all the time.

renriq- your questions have been addressed gracefully and intelligently by Alice. I too responded with biblical references and your explanantion was 'bad translation'.

We disagree. You'll be alright...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-24-2008, 01:01 PM
 
Location: Charlotte, North Carolina
5,137 posts, read 15,122,831 times
Reputation: 1008
Actually I believe it says that God did it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
We believe God poured His wrath on Jesus who took our place. Jesus paid our fine. It pleased God to punish Jesus because God hates sin therefore He must punish sin and since Jesus took on Him the sins of the world, then Jesus became sin. Jesus stepped in and paid our fine because that punishment from God was meant for us.

I know JW(s) can't stomach that thought therefore you believe Satan was the one who was pouring it on Jesus. My question is where is that in the bible. Where is the verse that said, it was Satan who was punishing Jesus?
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Old 10-24-2008, 01:54 PM
 
Location: Pleasant Shade Tn
2,214 posts, read 5,003,722 times
Reputation: 545
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
Lets be real careful using that word "persecuted" You nor I know the true meaning of the word here in the West. Over 160,000,000 Christians world wide are being persecuted as we speak and we all should pray for them everyday.
What do you consider persecution? I would say we are a persecuted people...I should think it evident from the very way in which people agree w/ me on this thread w/out reservation UNTIL they realize I'm a JW, only to diligently back peddle when they realize I am. The churches breed such a negative attitude about us that people literally are fearful to agree on even the most basic bible truths. Our children are ostracized for refusal to salute the flag or celebrate the holidays, things that we, as Americans, should be able to decide w/out pressure since we live in a 'free' country. No, we're not the only ones who are persecuted but we are definitely among the number. I can't help but call to mind the scripture in John that states

'If the world hates YOU, YOU know that it has hated me before it hated YOU. 19*If YOU were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because YOU are no part of the world, but I have chosen YOU out of the world, on this account the world hates YOU. 20*Bear in mind the word I said to YOU, A slave is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will persecute YOU also'

Persecution, while difficult, also assures us that we are on the right track.
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Old 10-24-2008, 02:05 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,468,646 times
Reputation: 746
Quote:
Originally Posted by alicenevada View Post
What do you consider persecution? I would say we are a persecuted people...I should think it evident from the very way in which people agree w/ me on this thread w/out reservation UNTIL they realize I'm a JW, only to diligently back peddle when they realize I am. The churches breed such a negative attitude about us that people literally are fearful to agree on even the most basic bible truths. Our children are ostracized for refusal to salute the flag or celebrate the holidays, things that we, as Americans, should be able to decide w/out pressure since we live in a 'free' country. No, we're not the only ones who are persecuted but we are definitely among the number. I can't help but call to mind the scripture in John that states

'If the world hates YOU, YOU know that it has hated me before it hated YOU. 19*If YOU were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because YOU are no part of the world, but I have chosen YOU out of the world, on this account the world hates YOU. 20*Bear in mind the word I said to YOU, A slave is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will persecute YOU also'

Persecution, while difficult, also assures us that we are on the right track.
There are Christians in Iraq who are being crucified "literally"

We Christians here in the West go through nothing but hurt feelings and name calling.
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