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Old 10-25-2008, 12:57 AM
 
2,934 posts, read 2,772,795 times
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Default Jesus' Three Active Titles

Quote:
Originally Posted by alicenevada View Post
Wow, antredd-you really put alot of thought into that. I appreciate that. Unfortunately, I don't agree that Christ had no beginning. He was the 'beginning of the creation by God' which means, he had a beginning. He also was referred to as a 'firstborn'. Whichever way you slice it-the word 'born' means 'came into existence'. The word 'first' means before all things. Therefore these words cannot apply to God who has ALWAYS existed.

To me, the scriptures support the conclusion that God created Jesus and the heavenly creatures before he created the earth, with Christ as his master worker. It is a beautiful relationship, indeed. But not an equal or internal one. It's the relationship of father and son. Simple and concise.
Thanks Alicia for replying to my post. I thought I clearly showed that firstborn can mean first in rank, pre-eminent one, heir, and eldest child. I'm surprised you overlooked what I said about God calling Israel His firstborn son; Ephraim being called the firstborn when Scripture clearly teaches that Manasseh was the firstborn, and in Colossians 1:15 Jesus is called firstborn.

I was showing, from examining firstborn as used in Genesis 48:14, Exodus 4:22, and Colossians 1:15, that these Scriptures aren’t dealing literally with chronology of first, second, and third respectively or the first child born into a family. You stated the word 'born' means 'came into existence' and I agree with you. However, would you agree that in these three cases where we see firstborn, it doesn't fit your definition? The word 'first' means before all things. Also, firstborn in these three contexts deals with the direct result of becoming the pre-eminent one. Even if you read down to Colossians 1:18 it clearly teaches that Jesus is first in all things or have preeminence over all things simply because all things were created for, by, and through Him. Colossians 1:15-1:20 all deal with the suppremacy of Christ over all of creation. If he were created, then verse 16 blows that argument clearly out of the water, unless you're reading the NWT that inserts other after all in Colossians 1:16, and looking at any interlinear bible will clearly show that other was not in the original Greek text or manuscript.

I guess you are quoting from Revelation 3:14 where we read that Jesus is "the beginning of the creation of God".

The word "beginning" here is actually the Greek word "arche", which is where we get our word "architect". The word here can carry the meaning of "origin, source, chief, designer, architect", which shows that Jesus is the One Who is the ORIGIN of all creation, not a creation Himself.

What blew my mind was when I read James Stewart's commentary on Revelation 3:14, and his finding that when we look at the occurrences of ARCHE in the Bible, ARCHE always signifies primacy, whether in time "beginning, " "principium" or in rank" "power," "dominion," "office."

He notes that Rev 3:14 needs to be put in the context of the entire book of Revelation. He lists other places in Revelation where Jesus is called the ruler ARCHON over the Earth's Kings, and how ARCHON overlaps in meaning with ARCHE as can be seen from checking other lexicons.

Stewart also makes an interesting point in that whenever ARCHE refers to a person (ONLY A PERSON CAN BE RULERS), IT ALMOST ALWAYS HAS SOMETHING TO DO WITH RULE, DOMINION , OR AUTHORIITY OF SOME TYPE. He clearly shows how just from simply looking at the CONTEXT of Rev: 3:14, one would see that the word means ruler instead of beginning.

The clincher for me was Stewart's point about Rev. 3:14 listing three ACTIVE TITLES for Jesus.
These three titles listed in Rev. 3:14 are:
1. THE AMEN
2. The Faithful and True Witness
3. The Beginning ( other possible meanings--origin, source, chief, designer, or architect) over God's creation.

Just from reading the parallelism of the titles suggests that John also meant Jesus to be the origin, source, chief, designer, ruler or architect) over God's creation.

Again, it now becomes even clearer from reading Rev 3:14 and other places in the bible that Jesus isn't a created being. No where in Scripture does it even DIRECTLY teach that Jesus was created by his father. He is begotten, but not created, and begotten doesn't mean created.

If anything, Scripture proves that Jesus, who was right there with his Father, played an active COEQUAL role in creation. If you find yourself disagreeing with me, read Genesis 1:26 where it says Let US make man in our Image. Who was God talking to in Genesis 1:26? Couldn't have been the angels right?

Therefore, Jesus was right there with God, and as John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16 clearly teach ALL THINGS WERE CREATED BY HIM [JESUS], AND APART FROM HIM [JESUS] NOT ONE THING WAS CREATED THAT HAS BEEN CREATED. I love that verse that says and apart from Him not one thing that was created has been created. To me that's the clincher, PROVING WITHOUT A SHADOW OF A DOUBT ,THAT JESUS WAS NOT CREATED.

Last edited by antredd; 10-25-2008 at 01:27 AM..
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Old 10-25-2008, 10:25 AM
 
807 posts, read 789,032 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
Lets be real careful using that word "persecuted" You nor I know the true meaning of the word here in the West. Over 160,000,000 Christians world wide are being persecuted as we speak and we all should pray for them everyday.
I thought a lot about what you and ren said about my reference to being persecuted for beliefs. I think there are varying forms of persecution...I, in no way can compare my experiences to the those who have been tortured, killed, imprisoned, etc. I suppose a more accurate word would have been 'ridiculed' or 'mocked' for stating and standing by my beliefs.

No matter how small it may seem to you or others...ridicule does, at times feel like persecution. The inlaws who look at your "poor kids" who have not been "properly" baptised as infants...the teacher who rolls her eyes when you ask them to be tolerant of your families beliefs...

I don't want to get into a battle of semantics. I hope you can appreciate my intent.
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Old 10-26-2008, 01:27 AM
 
Location: Cicero, NY
625 posts, read 1,177,277 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
We believe God poured His wrath on Jesus who took our place. Jesus paid our fine. It pleased God to punish Jesus because God hates sin therefore He must punish sin and since Jesus took on Him the sins of the world, then Jesus became sin. Jesus stepped in and paid our fine because that punishment from God was meant for us.

I know JW(s) can't stomach that thought therefore you believe Satan was the one who was pouring it on Jesus. My question is where is that in the bible. Where is the verse that said, it was Satan who was punishing Jesus?

I didnt say Satan was punishing Jesus, just the opposite if you read my whole post--Satan did not want the crucifixion to occur--he didn't influence, support, or plan it for the reasons I mentioned above
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Old 10-26-2008, 01:34 AM
 
Location: Cicero, NY
625 posts, read 1,177,277 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renriq02 View Post
Why are you assuming that Satan knew God's plan?
Of course Satan knew God's plan, as did Jesus.
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Old 10-26-2008, 09:43 AM
 
Location: Charlotte, North Carolina
5,137 posts, read 11,155,587 times
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If Satan knew then why would he influence Judas to betray Jesus?



Quote:
Originally Posted by jrice View Post
Of course Satan knew God's plan, as did Jesus.
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Old 10-26-2008, 02:57 PM
 
Location: Cicero, NY
625 posts, read 1,177,277 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renriq02 View Post
If Satan knew then why would he influence Judas to betray Jesus?
Because he didn't and wouldn't for the reasons I already stated--he wanted Jesus to live and not be sacrificed for the sake of mankind
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Old 10-26-2008, 05:08 PM
 
Location: Charlotte, North Carolina
5,137 posts, read 11,155,587 times
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oh ok I thought you were referring to something in the Bible...I didn't know you were sharing your opinion.

I guess it's now the people that come to kill, steal, and destroy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrice View Post
Because he didn't and wouldn't for the reasons I already stated--he wanted Jesus to live and not be sacrificed for the sake of mankind
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Old 10-26-2008, 06:10 PM
 
Location: Cicero, NY
625 posts, read 1,177,277 times
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Quote:
I guess it's now the people that come to kill, steal, and destroy.
???????
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Old 10-26-2008, 06:12 PM
 
Location: Charlotte, North Carolina
5,137 posts, read 11,155,587 times
Reputation: 967
Sorry I thought you would understand that I was quoting a partial verse from the bible.



Quote:
Originally Posted by jrice View Post
???????
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Old 10-26-2008, 06:48 PM
 
4,047 posts, read 2,755,589 times
Reputation: 1310
Satan knew that Jesus knew that God knew that I knew that it didn't matter who can make up the most convincing story.
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