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Old 10-20-2008, 09:30 AM
 
Location: Charlotte, North Carolina
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"Jehovah" is generally held to have been the invention of Pope Leo X.'s confessor, Peter Galatin ("De Arcanis Catholicæ Veritatis," 1518, folio xliii.), who was followed in the use of this hybrid form by Fagius (= Büchlein, 1504-49).
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Old 10-20-2008, 09:40 AM
 
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Quote:
A mispronunciation (introduced by Christian theologians, but almost entirely disregarded by the Jews)
If I'm not mistaken, wasn't Jesus almost entirely disregarded by the Jews?
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Old 10-20-2008, 09:51 AM
 
Location: Charlotte, North Carolina
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No. the 12 Apostles were Jewish..the first 3,000 that were saved were Jewish...the early Church was Jewish...

There were even Pharisees who were for Jesus.


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Originally Posted by beeveenh View Post
If I'm not mistaken, wasn't Jesus almost entirely disregarded by the Jews?
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Old 10-20-2008, 09:57 AM
 
810 posts, read 791,202 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renriq02 View Post
No. the 12 Apostles were Jewish..the first 3,000 that were saved were Jewish...the early Church was Jewish...

There were even Pharisees who for Jesus
I did say almost.

Who called for Jesus' death?
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Old 10-20-2008, 10:01 AM
 
Location: Charlotte, North Carolina
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Almost is wrong as it was only the local government trying to overthrow Jesus.

They were just but a HANDFUL of the THOUSANDS that followed Jesus.

The local government were probably 60-70 leaders....which is nothing to compare of the thousands that would follow Jesus and almost every city He went.

Who called for it? The Jewish leaders, Satan, Romans, etc.

Who did God pick to write the New Testament afterwards? the Jews.
Who are the oracles of God given to? the Jews.


Quote:
Originally Posted by beeveenh View Post
I did say almost.

Who called for Jesus' death?
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Old 10-20-2008, 10:10 AM
 
810 posts, read 791,202 times
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Quote:
only the local government

Pretty powerful group of ONLY 60-70 leaders

I do find it interesting that in your reference to the Jewish Encyclopedia it does say that it is almost entirely disregarded by the Jews. So there are some Jews who do not disregard the name being used. Just as some did not disregard Jesus.
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Old 10-20-2008, 10:18 AM
 
Location: Charlotte, North Carolina
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Well the majority of Americans said no to the bailout, and it still happened.
Pretty powerful group of 100 senators and 530 something in the House compared to over 300 million the US.

You should read the history as I have already cited sources.

The word was invented in the last 4 centuries...

To say it was spoken before Jesus is not true.
To say it was spoken during Jesus time is not true.

There is only ONE name that is above all names....that name is Jesus.

Also, the New Testament speaks of the Man on the white horse who had a NAME written on His head that NO MAN could pronounce. hmmmm

Quote:
Originally Posted by beeveenh View Post

Pretty powerful group of ONLY 60-70 leaders

I do find it interesting that in your reference to the Jewish Encyclopedia it does say that it is almost entirely disregarded by the Jews. So there are some Jews who do not disregard the name being used. Just as some did not disregard Jesus.
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Old 10-20-2008, 03:05 PM
 
Location: Pleasant Shade Tn
2,215 posts, read 3,544,339 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renriq02 View Post
Well the majority of Americans said no to the bailout, and it still happened.
Pretty powerful group of 100 senators and 530 something in the House compared to over 300 million the US.

You should read the history as I have already cited sources.

The word was invented in the last 4 centuries...

To say it was spoken before Jesus is not true.
To say it was spoken during Jesus time is not true.

There is only ONE name that is above all names....that name is Jesus.

Also, the New Testament speaks of the Man on the white horse who had a NAME written on His head that NO MAN could pronounce. hmmmm

You seem to enjoy ignoring portions of my statements. (maybe we should cut out the eye-rolling, incidentally). I did not say the word 'Jehovah' existed before Jesus. I said the NAME OF GOD was used before and during the existence of Christ.

You took a very convenient paragraph from the Jewish Encyclopedia, which suits your argument nicely. If you look at Volume xii, pg 119, I believe it also states that the name of God was known and used by pagan nations both in pre-Common Era times and in the early centuries of The Common Era.

The oldest Hebrew manuscripts represent the name, not as Elohim or Adonai but as the four Hebrew consonants, commonly called the Tetragrammeton. These four letters are transliterated into English as YHWH or latinized as JHWH. Since vowel points did not come into use until the 2nd half of the first millenium, C.E-it is indeed up to scholars to determine how the name should be pronounced.

There is no evidence that the early followers of God had any hesitancy in pronouncing his name. Non-Biblical Hebrew documents, such as the so-called Lachish Letters, show the name was used in regular correspondence in Palestine during the latter part of the seventh century B.C.E Also, the most ancient scrolls that have been discovered such as the one known as P.*Fouad Inventory No. 266, feature the Tetragrammeton numerous times, and contain portions of bible texts that in more recent translations, have the name removed. THis is confirmed by many sources including 'Theologisches Handwörterbuch zum Alten Testament, Vol. I, edited by E. Jenni and C. Westermann, 3rd ed., Munich and Zurich, 1978, cols. 703, 704.

Why the Jews discontinued using the name is not clearly known but is rooted mostly in superstition per The Mishnah and Volume ii of Jewish Antiquities. Exodus 9:16 makes it clear that God DOES want his name declared however, and this we surely intend to do. Why do the later versions of The Hebrew Scriptures have the name removed? Why did's King James' team of translators choose to take the Tetragrammeton out of the entire bible except in four places? No one exactly knows but these Jewish superstitions obviously had much to do with it.

As far as pronunciation goes,The Codex Leningrad B 19A, of the 11th century C.E., vowel points the Tetragrammaton to read Yehwah′, Yehwih′, and Yeho‧wah′. Ginsburg’s edition of the Masoretic text vowel points the divine name to read Yeho‧wah′. Whether you agree w/ the english translation of Jehovah, is really irrellevant. What is important is that it is an entirely different name than Jesus.

Please reference: Biblia Hebraica and Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia,The Imperial Bible-Dictionary, The Journal of Theological Studies, Oxford, Vol. XLV, 1944, pp. 158, 159,
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Old 10-20-2008, 03:40 PM
 
Location: Charlotte, North Carolina
5,137 posts, read 11,167,673 times
Reputation: 967
thank you

You can read below, and you should learn Jewish history.

BTW - The KJV mentions Jehovah many times. So we both know they have no discrimination against the made up word Jehovah.

Of course I know the NAME OF GOD was used before Christ.

Romans 3:1-2
1What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

Please tell me where in the Torah/Tenak does it say the name of God?
God gave the oracles to His people to protect, and now you're telling me a Gentile 'scholar' has figured out the name of God?

Even the NT shows that no man knows it now

11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.


12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.


Quote:
Originally Posted by alicenavada View Post
You seem to enjoy ignoring portions of my statements. (maybe we should cut out the eye-rolling, incidentally). I did not say the word 'Jehovah' existed before Jesus. I said the NAME OF GOD was used before and during the existence of Christ.

You took a very convenient paragraph from the Jewish Encyclopedia, which suits your argument nicely. If you look at Volume xii, pg 119, I believe it also states that the name of God was known and used by pagan nations both in pre-Common Era times and in the early centuries of The Common Era. 3And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them

The oldest Hebrew manuscripts represent the name, not as Elohim or Adonai but as the four Hebrew consonants, commonly called the Tetragrammeton. These four letters are transliterated into English as YHWH or latinized as JHWH. Since vowel points did not come into use until the 2nd half of the first millenium, C.E-it is indeed up to scholars to determine how the name should be pronounced. Actually it would be nice if God would tell us His name not that some 'man' made it up 'hoping' to get it right.

There is no evidence that the early followers of God had any hesitancy in pronouncing his name. Is this why Jesus said how we should prayer? Father in Heaven... Non-Biblical Hebrew documents, such as the so-called Lachish Letters, show the name was used in regular correspondence in Palestine during the latter part of the seventh century B.C.E Also, the most ancient scrolls that have been discovered such as the one known as P.*Fouad Inventory No. 266, feature the Tetragrammeton numerous times, and contain portions of bible texts that in more recent translations, have the name removed. THis is confirmed by many sources including 'Theologisches Handwörterbuch zum Alten Testament, Vol. I, edited by E. Jenni and C. Westermann, 3rd ed., Munich and Zurich, 1978, cols. 703, 704.

Why the Jews discontinued using the name is not clearly known but is rooted mostly in superstition per The Mishnah and Volume ii of Jewish Antiquities. Exodus 9:16 makes it clear that God DOES want his name declared however, and this we surely intend to do.
Exodus 3:15
15And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, the LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.
Why do the later versions of The Hebrew Scriptures have the name removed? Why did's King James' team of translators choose to take the Tetragrammeton out of the entire bible except in four places? It says in the KJV at least 7 places. No one exactly knows but these Jewish superstitions obviously had much to do with it.

As far as pronunciation goes,The Codex Leningrad B 19A, of the 11th century C.E., vowel points the Tetragrammaton to read Yehwah′, Yehwih′, and Yeho‧wah′. Again this is wrong as there is NO LETTER in the Hebrew alphabet that uses the W sound. Ginsburg’s edition of the Masoretic text vowel points the divine name to read Yeho‧wah′. Whether you agree w/ the english translation of Jehovah, is really irrellevant. What is important is that it is an entirely different name than Jesus.

Please reference: Biblia Hebraica and Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia,The Imperial Bible-Dictionary, The Journal of Theological Studies, Oxford, Vol. XLV, 1944, pp. 158, 159,
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Old 10-20-2008, 04:05 PM
 
Location: Pleasant Shade Tn
2,215 posts, read 3,544,339 times
Reputation: 518
Quote:
Originally Posted by renriq02 View Post
thank you

You can read below, and you should learn Jewish history.

BTW - The KJV mentions Jehovah many times. So we both know they have no discrimination against the made up word Jehovah.

Of course I know the NAME OF GOD was used before Christ.

Romans 3:1-2
1What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

Please tell me where in the Torah/Tenak does it say the name of God?
God gave the oracles to His people to protect, and now you're telling me a Gentile 'scholar' has figured out the name of God?

Even the NT shows that no man knows it now

11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.


12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Hmmm, not sure where to learn Jewish history if not from the books I've read. My Jewish teacher thought I was pretty 'up' on her history. You keep saying I need to learn Jewish history but you aren't able to tell me WHAT I need to learn. So if you don't mind, I'm going to trust that those who I know that DO read the languages and study the history of the ones question and assume that I have it right. Some of what you say is flatly contradicting what they've told me and what I've read. For instance 'WAW-The sixth letter of the Hebrew alphabet. In pronunciation this letter corresponds generally to the English “w,” as in “wine”; at times, however, in modern Hebrew it is given the sound of English “v.” In this work it is transliterated as “w” "u" and "oh" It is rarely used as an initial letter and is usually substituted for by the letter 'yondh'. In the Hebrew, it appears at the beginning of each of the eight verses of Psalm 119:41-48' This is a textbook definition, by the way.

I agree w/ all the bible verses you have highlighted by the way, but I have yet to understand what they have to do w/ the subject in question. I agree that Jesus is our way to salvation and I've never denied that.
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