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Old 10-21-2008, 06:22 AM
 
Location: Pleasant Shade Tn
2,214 posts, read 4,995,171 times
Reputation: 545

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Okiegirlfriend View Post
It took a lot of research, but I finally found the history of this religion.

Check out my post on this thread.

From Jehovah's Witness to Protestant
It doesnt take a lot of research to find the history of Jehovah's Witnesses. It is available in encyclopedias, books published by the Watchtower Society, and many other sources. I checked out your post but I didnt see a reference as to what the book was that you are quoting. It's written more like an essay than an unbiased historical account. Can you give me the name of the book?
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Old 10-21-2008, 06:28 AM
 
Location: Charlotte, North Carolina
5,137 posts, read 15,094,482 times
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Wow how you like to twist things.

My point is that You and/or NOBODY knows the correct pronunciation of God's name. Hebrew scholars are saying that you're WAY OFF.

Also, they don't know if it was the name of God being used or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alicenavada View Post
The name of GOd in Hebrew is throughout the scriptures, as I've noted and as I've provided references for. You seem to put alot of faith in the Jews and I appreciate your reasons for this. But I have spoken to and read the work of many experts on the Hebrew language. You'll forgive me if I am therefore unwilling to accept the arguments that contradict what I know from my own research. THe jews didnt stop using the Tetragrammeton in their writings until the fourth or fifth century, for unclear reasons.

And again, not to be a broken record, but just because the name Jehovah was not known until more recent times, does not mean that the name of God should not be spoken. I am certain He appreciates those who put an effort into pronouncing it whether they are exactly right or not.
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Old 10-21-2008, 06:30 AM
 
Location: Charlotte, North Carolina
5,137 posts, read 15,094,482 times
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I know from people coming to my house.

Michael the Archangel is not Jesus, and never will be.

There are many other teachings that is wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alicenavada View Post
I'm tired of the eye-rolling renriq. I'm not going to continue to respond to your obvious sarcasm. But if you truly want to know, I'll be glad to clarify any confusion concerning those teachings above or others. I don't see any prophecies there.

And by the way,, I appreciate the effort you've put into examining the background of my faith. I hope you're not only reading information by 'former Jehovah's Witnesses' as that would be unfair.
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Old 10-21-2008, 06:38 AM
 
Location: Pleasant Shade Tn
2,214 posts, read 4,995,171 times
Reputation: 545
Quote:
Originally Posted by renriq02 View Post
Wow how you like to twist things.

My point is that You and/or NOBODY knows the correct pronunciation of God's name. Hebrew scholars are saying that you're WAY OFF.

Also, they don't know if it was the name of God being used or not.
The HEbrew Scholars I know personally would disagree. And incidentally, so would the ones I've read. So that's done. I don't think we have anything left to say on this topic.
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Old 10-21-2008, 06:42 AM
 
Location: Pleasant Shade Tn
2,214 posts, read 4,995,171 times
Reputation: 545
Quote:
Originally Posted by renriq02 View Post
I know from people coming to my house.

Michael the Archangel is not Jesus, and never will be.

There are many other teachings that is wrong.
So you've spokent to Jehovah's Witnesses who came to your door! That's good. I'm glad you're not getting your info from outside sources. It's funny that people from other relgions get so indignant if you approach a former member of their faith for information but that's exactly what they do to us. Asking a Witness what they believe seems so much more logical.

Would you like to know why we believe Michael the Archangel is Jesus? Or is it such a preposterous idea that you don't even care?
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Old 10-21-2008, 06:48 AM
 
Location: Charlotte, North Carolina
5,137 posts, read 15,094,482 times
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I have talked to them about many things of which they couldnt care to show me in the bible. If you can't show it in the bible then it means nothing.

Hebrew scholars that are Orthodox Jews not gentiles or liberal Jews who weren't raised or have learned the Torah. Yes the topic is dead as you can't prove the name of God.
It is an insult to be calling Him whatever you want.
You think that God would 'prefer' but I wonder why God picked the Jews to keep the Oracles? The ways of men lead unto DEATH!



Quote:
Originally Posted by alicenavada View Post
So you've spokent to Jehovah's Witnesses who came to your door! That's good. I'm glad you're not getting your info from outside sources. It's funny that people from other relgions get so indignant if you approach a former member of their faith for information but that's exactly what they do to us. Asking a Witness what they believe seems so much more logical.

Would you like to know why we believe Michael the Archangel is Jesus? Or is it such a preposterous idea that you don't even care?
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Old 10-21-2008, 07:22 AM
 
Location: Pleasant Shade Tn
2,214 posts, read 4,995,171 times
Reputation: 545
Quote:
Originally Posted by renriq02 View Post
I have talked to them about many things of which they couldnt care to show me in the bible. If you can't show it in the bible then it means nothing.

Hebrew scholars that are Orthodox Jews not gentiles or liberal Jews who weren't raised or have learned the Torah. Yes the topic is dead as you can't prove the name of God.
It is an insult to be calling Him whatever you want.
You think that God would 'prefer' but I wonder why God picked the Jews to keep the Oracles? The ways of men lead unto DEATH!
If a JW didnt show you their reason from the bible, it is more than likely because they didnt feel you truly wanted to know but were simply testing them. If that is the case, it is no wonder that they did not take the time to 'prove themselves' to you. That's not why we visit our neighbors, after all. I have no problem showing you from the bible why I believe Michael the Archangel is Christ.

THe name Michael means 'Who is like GOd' which shows that the foremost prince mentioned in the book of Daniel upholds Jehovah's sovreignty (I plan to continue using the name of God even if you feel it is insulting since my conscience won't allow me not to). At the climax of Daniel chapter 11, Micahel 'stands up', a term that in other parts of the prophecy refers to accepting authority to rule as king. In the parallel prophecy at Daniel chapter 7, the one who accepts rulership is 'someone like a son of man'-an expression that most people agree refers to Jesus. Since both prophecies deal w/ the same time and event, it stands to reason that Michael and Jesus are the same.

Jude nine shows that Michael had the post of archangel. We have no reason to believe there is more than one archangel since no other archangel is mentioned in the bible and it is never referred to in plural form. 'Archangel' means 'chief of the angels' and since only Michael and Jesus are spoken of as having this position, there is further evidence that they are the same.

1 Thess 4:16 states that Jesus will decend from heaven with a commanding call and an archangel's voice. Revelation 12 speaks of Michael and his angels battling the dragon and the dragon did not prevail. But it is Jesus who is spoken of repeatedly in the book of Revelation as the one who will abyss Satan and bring to fruition the prophecy that includes 'bruising Satan in the head'. Therefore, I feel istrongly that the two are the same. Of course, Jehovah's Witnesses are not bound by the rules of the trinity doctrine so this poses no problem for us.

As for the last statements you made, concerning the name of God and the Jews. I really don't feel the need to answer them. Like I said, that conversation has served. You may take this as an admission of defeat if you like but I feel I've made my reasoning on this subject clear and have provided ample references to back it up.
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Old 10-21-2008, 05:27 PM
 
2,560 posts, read 5,048,174 times
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It takes a lot of research when you use Google. I found a lot on youtube, but I don't think they are too credible.

I disagree about only one archangle mentioned in the Bible. This is some of what I found with Google.

Gabriel, Jibril

Gabriel is an angel of high eminence in Jewish, Christian, and Muslim tradition. He is one of the four most often noted archangels in Judaism and Christianity, the others being Michael, Raphael, and Uriel. Gabriel is the heavenly messenger who appears in order to reveal God's will. In the Old Testament, Gabriel interprets the prophet's vision of the ram and the he-goat (see Daniel 8:15-26) and explains the prediction of the 70 weeks of years (or 490 years) for the duration of the exile from Jerusalem (see Daniel 9:21-27). In the New Testament, he announces to Zacharias the birth of Zacharias's son (see Luke 1:11-20), who is destined to become known as John the Baptist, and to Mary that she is to be the mother of Jesus Christ (see Luke 1:26-31). Among Muslims, Gabriel is believed to be the spirit who revealed the sacred writings to the Prophet Muhammad.

As remarked above, Gabriel is mentioned only twice in the New Testament, but it is not unreasonable to suppose with Christian tradition that it is he who appeared to St. Joseph and to the shepherds, and also that it was he who "strengthened" Our Lord in the garden (cf. the Hymn for Lauds on 24 March). Gabriel is generally termed only an archangel, but the expression used by St. Raphael, "I am the angel Raphael, one of the seven, who stand before the Lord" (Tobit 12:15) and St. Gabriel's own words, "I am Gabriel, who stand before God" (Luke 1:19), have led some to think that these angels must belong to the highest rank; but this is generally explained as referring to their rank as the highest of God's messengers, and not as placing them among the Seraphim and Cherubim (cf. St. Thomas, I, Q. cxii, a.3; III, Q. xxx, a.2, ad 4um).

Archangels Michael Gabriel Raphael and Uriel

Whenever a mighty deed is in question, Michael is assigned, so that by his actions and name it may be made known that no one can do what God can do. So in the case of our ancient enemy, who in his pride wanted to be like God when he said: 'I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will make myself like the Most High': when he is shown to be condemned to eternal punishment at the end of the world, he is described as about to do battle with Michael, as Saint John says: 'War broke out with Michael the archangel.'
Gabriel was sent to Mary, for Gabriel means 'Strength of God'. He came to announce him who deigned to be lowly so as to wage war on the spiritual powers of the air. He who came as God of power and as one strong in battle was to be announced by Gabriel, the strength of God.
Finally Raphael is interpreted, as we have said, as 'Healing of God', since he wiped away the shadows of blindness from Tobias when he touched his eyes to cure him. The one who is sent to cure, was indeed worthy of the name 'Healing of God'.
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Old 10-22-2008, 06:26 AM
 
810 posts, read 1,258,977 times
Reputation: 194
renriq02-
Quote:
I didn't say 'God' was unknown to the Jews.
I said that the NAME OF GOD was unknown to the Jews.
Psalms 9:10
10 Those who know your name will trust in you,
for you, LORD, have never forsaken those who seek you. (NIV)

You also pointed out that bible writers were Jewish. That is true, they were all natural-born Hebrews, Isrealites or Jews. I hope you do not misunderstand what I was saying. I, in no way, have ill feelings for the Jewish 'religion'. First, that would not be very loving. Most importantly the Jewish nation was established by God through his covenant with his faithful servant Abraham>>Jacob/Isreal>>Judah. I could not deny this arrangement for pure worship from which the Messiah was to come.

However, it is recorded that SOME Jews strayed from pure worship. I feel this is how the name of God was lost. In our day, I believe that God recognizes our intention to call on his name as he instructed us to do. AND since as you say, "no one knows the name of God", YOU can't say for certain that Jehovah/Yahweh is not the proper pronunciation.
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Old 10-22-2008, 06:59 AM
 
Location: Charlotte, North Carolina
5,137 posts, read 15,094,482 times
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those who 'strayed' away didn't keep the Torah or the Tenakh.

Only the High Priest was to invoke the name of God once per year.



Quote:
Originally Posted by beeveenh View Post
renriq02-

Psalms 9:10
10 Those who know your name will trust in you,
for you, LORD, have never forsaken those who seek you. (NIV)

You also pointed out that bible writers were Jewish. That is true, they were all natural-born Hebrews, Isrealites or Jews. I hope you do not misunderstand what I was saying. I, in no way, have ill feelings for the Jewish 'religion'. First, that would not be very loving. Most importantly the Jewish nation was established by God through his covenant with his faithful servant Abraham>>Jacob/Isreal>>Judah. I could not deny this arrangement for pure worship from which the Messiah was to come.

However, it is recorded that SOME Jews strayed from pure worship. I feel this is how the name of God was lost. In our day, I believe that God recognizes our intention to call on his name as he instructed us to do. AND since as you say, "no one knows the name of God", YOU can't say for certain that Jehovah/Yahweh is not the proper pronunciation.
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