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Old 10-11-2008, 10:52 PM
 
3,582 posts, read 460,282 times
Reputation: 386

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Urbanlemur,

What I have learnt is that the majority is not necessarily right. Nor is tradition necessarily right. I am not trying to change anyones mind, I am learning and questioning and also sharing what I am learning.

I have been learning that bible translations are influenced by cultural bias and theological thoughts.

By Jewish tradition Jesus should have been the first to stone the adulteress. But he was not upholding Jewish tradition he was upholding Gods Law.

 
Old 10-12-2008, 06:33 AM
Status: "Because He first loved me..." (set 3 days ago)
 
Location: Bronx, NY
1,319 posts, read 2,730,956 times
Reputation: 675
And I don't think anyone here is trying to stone homosexuals either. What I see is that while folks are trying to show that this particular preference goes against God's Word, they are also showing that they are still loved by us with compassion. It's the same principle shown to fornicators, idolators, drunkards, thieves, et al.
 
Old 10-12-2008, 08:02 AM
 
4,541 posts, read 12,791,035 times
Reputation: 2278
Default Jesus and the New Covenant...

Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
Urbanlemur,

What I have learnt is that the majority is not necessarily right. Nor is tradition necessarily right. I am not trying to change anyones mind, I am learning and questioning and also sharing what I am learning.

I have been learning that bible translations are influenced by cultural bias and theological thoughts.

By Jewish tradition Jesus should have been the first to stone the adulteress. But he was not upholding Jewish tradition he was upholding Gods Law.
Even though there is much disagreement among churches, you are missing a fundamental principal of Christianity.

Jesus came to bring a New Covenant. That is what New Testament means.

The Old Covenant was a set of rules by which man could never be good enough to please God.
Under the Old Covenant, the way to forgiveness was a ritual, through a priest and required a sacrifice.
Jesus came to die on the cross and to be that sacrifice for man's sins. God wanted us to understand His love and His forgiveness -- as well as His holiness.

The particular scripture reference that you've brought up happens to be one of my very favorite Scriptures.

The religious people that condemned her wanted to stone her but Jesus knew their hearts. He knew their secret sins...
I believe that was what He wrote on the ground.

Repentance,... is not asking God to condone sin. It is recognizing that you are a sinner and asking God to forgive you.... change is required.

But, what Jesus said to her was,

"Neither do I condemn you..." (for your past)

"Go and Sin No More.

Last edited by World Citizen; 10-12-2008 at 08:59 AM..
 
Old 10-12-2008, 08:33 AM
 
Location: Charlotte, North Carolina
5,137 posts, read 15,116,995 times
Reputation: 1008
I love how people like to 'twist' the Word of God

Leviticus 18
22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination

34Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons
He's talking about salvation

1 Corinthians 6:9 malakos - effeminate - mä-lä-ko's
1) of a boy kept for homosexual relations with a man
2) of a male who submits his body to unnatural lewdness
3) of a male prostitute

That is the CORRECT interpretation for the greek word malakos

I can go on....but I'm sure you get the point
Homosexuality is a sin
 
Old 10-12-2008, 09:07 AM
 
Location: Democratic Peoples Republic of Redneckistan
11,102 posts, read 12,826,127 times
Reputation: 3917
There are some fantastic posters in this thread!!!!!

I believe like most that we are to pray for ANY sinner,be they a glutton,drunk,homosexual or just someone who doesn't know the LORD.
I AM ashamed of how many Churches and people who proclaim themselves to be followers of CHRIST treat sinners who are trying to get a grip on their life or those living in sin who come to check out a service or two.
A perfect example of this is the Church I attend.

There is a family in town that has 4 kids which all come from a broken home.The dad attends Church faithfully and usually brings the three younger children (5-11 years old) with him when he comes.They also have a son who is 15 who is BLATANTLY gay.He came to services several times and you could just tell he felt very uncomfortable and when everyone went around after service and shook hands and talked a bit before leaving it seemed to me that he was excluded which didn't seem to help him feel any more welcome.Next thing you know,he quits showing up at Church and we haven't seen him for services in over a year now and I've never heard a single person ask his family how he's doing.I'm including myself in on this shame in more ways than one.I see him occasionally at the local store and instead of telling him we are missing him at Church,I just smile,nod and walk on by, but I won't hesitate a second to talk to one of the methheads in the store about coming to visit us at Church or one of the local drunks.I can't make excuses because there isn't one for my actions or the actions of my Church.The only thing I can say is that this is a very rural area where everyone knows everyone and homosexuals that are that blatantly out of the closet just don't exist around here and we just don't understand exactly how to deal with it plus he is a minor child and I don't even know if my preacher can legally discuss those things with him without getting in trouble.I'm not sure how that even works.

Posting this has made me sure of one thing though,Although I have prayed for him in the past,I'm ashamed of myself for not talking to him and trying to make him feel wanted by the LORD and in the Church AND I'm going to talk to him the next time I see him and tell him that I would like to see him in Church next service and that I've been praying for him.If anyone has suggestions on how to best handle this,I'm all ears.
 
Old 10-12-2008, 09:18 AM
 
Location: UK.
348 posts, read 451,339 times
Reputation: 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dcm22 View Post
WARNING- THIS POSTING IS MY OPINION AND WHAT I SEE AROUND ME AND IN MY COMMUNITY. THIS BY NO MEANS APPLIES TO ALL COMMUNITIES OR ALL PEOPLE. THERE ARE SEVERAL GENERALIZATIONS HERE AND I AM SORRY IF I GENERALIZE YOU INCORRECTLY, BUT THIS IS WHAT I SEE AND FEEL. AGAIN SORRY FOR THE OFFENSE.

I am a Christian (I consider myself liberal and I like to remind people that Jesus wasn't a conservative nor an American!) and this whole conflict with gay people and "Church" is rediculous! (Notice I say Church, because there is no conflict with Jesus and gay people or christians truly after God's heart and gay people, just some people in the "church" today and gay people). From my experience, gay people don't have much of a problem with Jesus, thier problem (and I think rightly) is with the church which doesn't accept them as equals. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A GAY OR LESBIAN PERSON AND A STRAIGHT PERSON! GOD WANTS US ALL!

For the record, I am voting NO on Proposition 8. I am for Same-Sex marriage. That really is a whole separte post which hopefully I will have time to get to, because I feel the greater problem is gay people not being welcomed and accepted as God's people by all of us other sinners. I have been reading some of these posts on this forum, and I feel some relief that there are churches out there that don't make the distinction between gay and straight and it is not even an issue. Praise the Lord!

However, where I living right now (California) there is a lot "anti-gay" sentiment in the "christian" community. It is really disheartening. For example, a friend of mine said that she didn't feel it was right that a gay guy she previously went to school with was a christian and witnessed to people as a christian, and she didn't feel this was right. I wish I knew who that guy is, so I could take him to coffee or something I wish I could so easily witness to people (and inspite of the discrimination!). That is what Jesus would do... Witness to people and bring people to the Lord.

A big thing I hear is, "Hate the sin, love the sinner" and "Just repent and God will help you as long as you stop being gay", and I think that that is completely missing the point. I wish our society made no distinction between gay and straight. If you believe that being gay is a sin (and I know a lot of you do), I say... WHO CARES! Love is love, love each other, love Jesus, love, love, love. Its all about love!

Also, I disagree with accepting gay people into church on the condition that they "repent of their sin and promises to try to stop being gay". We should be accepting everybody. If I am accepted, (the biggest sinner I know) then we all should be.

To me it is unimaginable that anyone would be discouraged from following Jesus for ANY REASON, let alone thier sexual orientation. Now, I could rant about this for a while but there are two reasons why I won't. 1. Time is limited and 2. I am really trying to turn my frustration on this issue into love for people and I want to show the love of Jesus to all people (gay, lesbian, straight, christian, non-christian, everybody).

The punchline in this post is that I have been praying about starting a ministry for gay people who are kicked out of church or disowned by their family for being gay or who just feel the discrimination of "christians" or the pressure to stop being gay, or live unhappy lives in a straight charade, or anything like that (in the Sacramento, CA area and eventually the CA Bay Area).

I know this post will upset a lot of people, but the responses I am more interested in are the ones who would support such ministry or have any resources for me. This is a big job (as is any ministry for God in today's world) and I could use all the encouragement I can get. I have a lot of research to do and I am going to talk to my pastor about this, but any help from you would be great!

THANKS!
]

My dear friend, your posting saddens me more than I can say. As a gay man myself, my heart bleeds for you in your self-imposed predicament, and your determination to cling to a religion that basically wishes you and I didn't exist! There is clearly something in you that refuses to see this, but believe me, the sooner you stop trying to make yourself acceptable to Christian bigots the happier and more liberated you will feel - I promise you. Personally, I decided by the age of 15 that this was a pointless exercise, and have never looked back. My own upbringing was very religious, and it isn't easy to stand back and see the tyranny of organised religion, and it takes an effort of will to free oneself from the intolerable strictures and hostility one encounters. But once you decide that you no longer need to put yourself through this, the more self-respect you will feel. The fact is, you sound like a decent and likeable person, with pronounced spiritual needs. I want to assure you that it is more than possible to lead a compassionate and loving life guided only by your higher instincts, without the promise of a future reward in Heaven or anywhere else. This, to me, is far closer in spirit to what Jesus actually tried to say than anything you will find in the (often cruel) churches founded in his name: in fact, I have a deep regard for that remarkable and deeply misunderstood man, but I believe he would weep bitter tears if he saw what people have been doing doing in his name over the centuries.... I hope this helps you in some little way, if only to realise that you are trapped in a no-win situation. The most civilised people in society will 'accept' you - or rather will estimate you for who you truly are - regardless of who you choose to fall in love with. In this respect, as in so many others, the churches lag far behind an enlightened society in terms of ethics and morality, and I deeply hope that you will find a way of realising your spiritual nature without reference to a dogma that has long since outlived its acceptability. Christians don't have a monopoly on LOVE in its fullest sense, although they would like you to believe so. True love is always unconditional, whether you believe in a god or not. Deep down, I feel you know I am right on this... Brian.
 
Old 10-12-2008, 09:20 AM
 
16,438 posts, read 18,558,236 times
Reputation: 9494
Love, yes, accept, no. A Christian should not accept willful sinful behavior.
 
Old 10-12-2008, 09:52 AM
 
4,541 posts, read 12,791,035 times
Reputation: 2278
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dcm22 View Post
WARNING- THIS POSTING IS MY OPINION AND WHAT I SEE AROUND ME AND IN MY COMMUNITY. THIS BY NO MEANS APPLIES TO ALL COMMUNITIES OR ALL PEOPLE. THERE ARE SEVERAL GENERALIZATIONS HERE AND I AM SORRY IF I GENERALIZE YOU INCORRECTLY, BUT THIS IS WHAT I SEE AND FEEL. AGAIN SORRY FOR THE OFFENSE.

I am a Christian (I consider myself liberal and I like to remind people that Jesus wasn't a conservative nor an American!) and this whole conflict with gay people and "Church" is rediculous! (Notice I say Church, because there is no conflict with Jesus and gay people or christians truly after God's heart and gay people, just some people in the "church" today and gay people). From my experience, gay people don't have much of a problem with Jesus, thier problem (and I think rightly) is with the church which doesn't accept them as equals. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A GAY OR LESBIAN PERSON AND A STRAIGHT PERSON! GOD WANTS US ALL!

For the record, I am voting NO on Proposition 8. I am for Same-Sex marriage. That really is a whole separte post which hopefully I will have time to get to, because I feel the greater problem is gay people not being welcomed and accepted as God's people by all of us other sinners. I have been reading some of these posts on this forum, and I feel some relief that there are churches out there that don't make the distinction between gay and straight and it is not even an issue. Praise the Lord!

However, where I living right now (California) there is a lot "anti-gay" sentiment in the "christian" community. It is really disheartening. For example, a friend of mine said that she didn't feel it was right that a gay guy she previously went to school with was a christian and witnessed to people as a christian, and she didn't feel this was right. I wish I knew who that guy is, so I could take him to coffee or something I wish I could so easily witness to people (and inspite of the discrimination!). That is what Jesus would do... Witness to people and bring people to the Lord.

A big thing I hear is, "Hate the sin, love the sinner" and "Just repent and God will help you as long as you stop being gay", and I think that that is completely missing the point. I wish our society made no distinction between gay and straight. If you believe that being gay is a sin (and I know a lot of you do), I say... WHO CARES! Love is love, love each other, love Jesus, love, love, love. Its all about love!

Also, I disagree with accepting gay people into church on the condition that they "repent of their sin and promises to try to stop being gay". We should be accepting everybody. If I am accepted, (the biggest sinner I know) then we all should be.

To me it is unimaginable that anyone would be discouraged from following Jesus for ANY REASON, let alone thier sexual orientation. Now, I could rant about this for a while but there are two reasons why I won't. 1. Time is limited and 2. I am really trying to turn my frustration on this issue into love for people and I want to show the love of Jesus to all people (gay, lesbian, straight, christian, non-christian, everybody).

The punchline in this post is that I have been praying about starting a ministry for gay people who are kicked out of church or disowned by their family for being gay or who just feel the discrimination of "christians" or the pressure to stop being gay, or live unhappy lives in a straight charade, or anything like that (in the Sacramento, CA area and eventually the CA Bay Area).

I know this post will upset a lot of people, but the responses I am more interested in are the ones who would support such ministry or have any resources for me. This is a big job (as is any ministry for God in today's world) and I could use all the encouragement I can get. I have a lot of research to do and I am going to talk to my pastor about this, but any help from you would be great!

THANKS!
Quote:
Originally Posted by brianrees View Post
]

My dear friend, your posting saddens me more than I can say. As a gay man myself, my heart bleeds for you in your self-imposed predicament, and your determination to cling to a religion that basically wishes you and I didn't exist! There is clearly something in you that refuses to see this, but believe me, the sooner you stop trying to make yourself acceptable to Christian bigots the happier and more liberated you will feel - I promise you. Personally, I decided by the age of 15 that this was a pointless exercise, and have never looked back. My own upbringing was very religious, and it isn't easy to stand back and see the tyranny of organised religion, and it takes an effort of will to free oneself from the intolerable strictures and hostility one encounters. But once you decide that you no longer need to put yourself through this, the more self-respect you will feel. The fact is, you sound like a decent and likeable person, with pronounced spiritual needs. I want to assure you that it is more than possible to lead a compassionate and loving life guided only by your higher instincts, without the promise of a future reward in Heaven or anywhere else. This, to me, is far closer in spirit to what Jesus actually tried to say than anything you will find in the (often cruel) churches founded in his name: in fact, I have a deep regard for that remarkable and deeply misunderstood man, but I believe he would weep bitter tears if he saw what people have been doing doing in his name over the centuries.... I hope this helps you in some little way, if only to realise that you are trapped in a no-win situation. The most civilised people in society will 'accept' you - or rather will estimate you for who you truly are - regardless of who you choose to fall in love with. In this respect, as in so many others, the churches lag far behind an enlightened society in terms of ethics and morality, and I deeply hope that you will find a way of realising your spiritual nature without reference to a dogma that has long since outlived its acceptability. Christians don't have a monopoly on LOVE in its fullest sense, although they would like you to believe so. True love is always unconditional, whether you believe in a god or not. Deep down, I feel you know I am right on this... Brian.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoosier View Post
Nobody's throwing stones here.
Gee, Hoosier....

It seems to me that you're missing a chance to step up to the plate and share your heart here.
It could really make a difference.

Didn't you say that this was your heart cry, as well?

God bless,

WC
 
Old 10-12-2008, 10:13 AM
 
Location: UK.
348 posts, read 451,339 times
Reputation: 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bideshi View Post
Love, yes, accept, no. A Christian should not accept willful sinful behavior.
Bideshi - thanks for proving my point about the distorted view that Christians hold on love. Love without acceptance cannot exist... it is a contradiction in terms. Be honest with yourself - you feel little, or any love for anyone who differs from you and your values - so spare us the mock-compassion, it's not remotely sincere; it usually means the exact reverse - you hide behind your religion (Christ forgive you) to express the hate and intolerance that you really feel. Personally, I don't give a damn whether you accept me or not, but sadly, there are many gay people out there who are hurt by your condemnation of them as 'sinners', no matter how decent and kind they may be to their fellow man. From my religious up-bringing, I seem to remember Jesus saying that only the guiltless should throw stones, and as none of us is perfect (except you, perhaps) - what gives you the right to be so bitter and judgemental? To me, that is a far more serious failing than simply being gay, especially as your bigotry often inflicts deep hurt on genuine, loving individuals. - After all, who made gay people, if not God? Think about it.
 
Old 10-12-2008, 10:27 AM
 
Location: Charlotte, North Carolina
5,137 posts, read 15,116,995 times
Reputation: 1008
Jewish tradition?
No it was God's law to stone the adulteress. This is written in the Old Testament. You need to remember that Jews/Hebrews didn't just come up with laws/traditions/rituals on their own. The majority of it was ordained by God.

Also, Jesus did not break His own law as He is the lawgiver and the judge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
Urbanlemur,

What I have learnt is that the majority is not necessarily right. Nor is tradition necessarily right. I am not trying to change anyones mind, I am learning and questioning and also sharing what I am learning.

I have been learning that bible translations are influenced by cultural bias and theological thoughts.

By Jewish tradition Jesus should have been the first to stone the adulteress. But he was not upholding Jewish tradition he was upholding Gods Law.
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