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Old 10-14-2008, 07:05 AM
 
Location: Charlotte, North Carolina
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1. The Sadducees didn't believe in the afterlife. They were trying to trick him with a question

2. Torah says that you're married to the person for life. God didn't create 'divorce' as Jesus said Moses created the bill because of the 'stubborness' of their hearts. Jesus STILL states that

And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except [it be] for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

Why did he say fornication? (other translations may say adultery or immorality which is WRONG)
Jews ALWAYS believe once you're married...you're married for life.

Most don't understand the Jewish marriage, and it's origin.

1. Jews were bethrothed before getting married. They were 'technically' married at this point. This is why Joseph was wondering how he would put away Mary

Mat 1:18
Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

mnēsteuō
to be promised in marriage, be betrothed

Mat 1:19
Then Joseph her husband, being a just [man], and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.

A man when he marries a woman he's ONLY allowed to put her away if she's found NOT to be a virgin. This is why Jesus said "except it be for fornication" Fornication is BEFORE marriage. Adultery is after marriage.

If the woman is found that she's not a virgin then the marriage is 'annulled'. Meaning it was never a marriage to begin with.

I'm not sure what anyone thinks will happen in Heaven but I doubt we'll be looking for our spouses or loved ones as 'most would believe'.

Jesus may or may not have answered the question to the Sadducees, but He did say it will be a moot point of what will happen in Heaven.
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Old 10-14-2008, 08:12 AM
 
Location: Socialist Republik of Amerika
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nero777 View Post
Yes, He did make a correlation, but it still leaves us both to interpreting how marriage will be in the endtime. I believe that Harris was right in saying we need to study and evaluate death and mortality as these are obvious factors in determining marriage in the afterlife. Until then, I agree with Nikk about marriage being a symbol of the relationship with Christ that we all are suppose to share. I can't really think of the verse right now, but isn't there somewhere in Scripture where Paul says "that as a man is the head of his wife, so is Christ the head of the Church". I've always interpreted this verse to mean what Nikk said. When we die, the relationship with Christ would be the real marriage and all others would be considered null and void. But I am open to the other argument, if we can find some Scripture that can give a more direct answer.
Certainly it is about being one... There are definitions of marriage; the purest being made one, the lowest laying with another.

Elohim, has masculine and feminine parts, when discerned it means, God and his mate.

In the ressurection there is not giving in marriage because the bodies are not as we are now, they are not capable of procreation in the way we procreate now.

Before the fall procreation was not physical, it was spiritual. Post fall it became physical/animal and woman now travailed in birth. The organs of the body were changed to a lower function than the higher function of perfected flesh, or the divine nature.

Spiritual marriage exists in heaven, it will not exist as we know it now in a fallen state after the ressurection, because the meek inherit the earth, and the earth will not be in a fallen state at the time of the ressurection. People will not die, Satan will be bound.

godspeed,

freedom
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Old 10-14-2008, 11:51 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freedom View Post
Certainly it is about being one... There are definitions of marriage; the purest being made one, the lowest laying with another.

Elohim, has masculine and feminine parts, when discerned it means, God and his mate.

In the ressurection there is not giving in marriage because the bodies are not as we are now, they are not capable of procreation in the way we procreate now.

Before the fall procreation was not physical, it was spiritual. Post fall it became physical/animal and woman now travailed in birth. The organs of the body were changed to a lower function than the higher function of perfected flesh, or the divine nature.

Spiritual marriage exists in heaven, it will not exist as we know it now in a fallen state after the ressurection, because the meek inherit the earth, and the earth will not be in a fallen state at the time of the ressurection. People will not die, Satan will be bound.

godspeed,

freedom
I do like where you are going with this freedom, but I still would ask of you, if you don't mind, where is the Scriptural evidence to validate the spiritual marriage you are referring to in the afterlife? It's interesting and I would like to see the verses that help support your stance. I look forward to hearing from you.
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Old 10-14-2008, 12:10 PM
 
Location: Socialist Republik of Amerika
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nero777 View Post
I do like where you are going with this freedom, but I still would ask of you, if you don't mind, where is the Scriptural evidence to validate the spiritual marriage you are referring to in the afterlife? It's interesting and I would like to see the verses that help support your stance. I look forward to hearing from you.
The only scripture i know of that may have efficacy is this one, but it is speaking of this earthly system.

Mat 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made [them] at the beginning made them male and female,
Mat 19:5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
Mat 19:6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

I don't have any scripture that would be acceptable to describe the spiritual marriage of two people that are joined in the flesh, i just know within myself that soul mates
exist and that marriage on this level speaks of physical relations in order to procreate.
In the heavenly/edenic estate there is no intercourse in order to conceive, it is a spiritual creating and birthing of children.
In the ressurection there is no physical body like we have now, it is like the bodies of the garden of eden, pure and undefiled by animal acts, and death has no claim either.
Luk 20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
Luk 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:


godspeed,

freedom
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Old 10-14-2008, 05:14 PM
 
352 posts, read 476,324 times
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Well, there is one question that has arisen from what you said; hypothetically, what would a spiritual marriage in heaven look like when not centered on the carnal desires of the flesh and heart? How would it work and how would be different in the spirit when compared to the way we are now? Plus, does anyone have any Scripture outside the ones used that may support either freedom's or my stance? I look forward to hearing from you.
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Old 10-14-2008, 08:34 PM
 
Location: Socialist Republik of Amerika
6,212 posts, read 11,453,140 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nero777 View Post
Well, there is one question that has arisen from what you said; hypothetically, what would a spiritual marriage in heaven look like when not centered on the carnal desires of the flesh and heart? How would it work and how would be different in the spirit when compared to the way we are now? Plus, does anyone have any Scripture outside the ones used that may support either freedom's or my stance? I look forward to hearing from you.
Hmmm... that's a good question, i think that it would be two that are one in purpose living according to the laws and principles that they comprehend, and that upon receiving a fulness of God they would be able to be fruitful and multiply according to the spiritual laws of creation.

Being that people die at different levels of righteousness, from the least to the greatest i believe that the learning process would continue.

If there are two people that overcome sin while in the flesh and are translated, then they would be operating in the highest levels of heaven and their rewards would be of the highest blessings possible to receive... is that a universe, a planet, a ethereal sphere, constant pressence at the throne of God?

One thing is for certain, that eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, the things that God has prepared for those that love Him...

godspeed,

freedom
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Old 10-14-2008, 11:26 PM
 
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Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
Yes they are. But not in the way you think about marriage, as in a carnal sense.
The reason I wrote this, since no-one asked , was that we in the flesh are married anyways to each other. We all come from Adam, so we are one with him in the flesh. Think about it. God only made 2 men. The rest come from these 2 men. One is a carnal man,Adam, whence we all come from. The other is the Spirit, Jesus the Word, which we ALL belong. We cannot be married in heaven, as we are One with Jesus, hence the analogies of the "Body of Christ", and the "Bride of Christ". Both of these are a prelude of what is to come, but not all will do so. This is why Jesus was stating, in a not literal sense:

Mat 5:29
"If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. "If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.



If you read the Spiritual side of the warnings in Matthew 5, you will see that Jesus is actually talking about severing that from His Spiritual body, not our carnal one. Adam, and those prior to Jesus were already cut off, with no hope until Christ Risen.

Since we, who have been given the Breath of Life, ARE the Body of Christ, we are purified, cleansed, and washed from all unrighteousness, to prepare for the Marriage supper of the Lamb, with White Robes dipped in His Blood. Literally, probably not, but Spiritually, this speaks volumes, for those who walk this narrow path with Him as the Shepard. But there are those who refuse this.

This is one of the reasons I am not a Universalist any longer. It doesn't add up. Yes ALL are saved from this death, but not all will partake of the Tree of Life. There will be those "outside the Gates", or cast off, cut off, whatever, that are no longer part of His Body.

Is this making sense?
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Old 10-15-2008, 03:12 AM
 
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Default This analogy is entirely fitting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikk View Post
The body of Christ is the bride. When we are with Christ there is no other marriage. The intitution of marriage was formed by God for us on earth to understand the marriage of Christ and his bride the Church. So, the earthly thing will pass away. But the things of Christ are eternal.
I think it entirely fitting that the scriptures compare the covenant we make with Christ to the covenant of marriage. It is true, there are similarities. Interestingly, entering into a covenant of oneness with Christ is something that occurs in mortality even though the covenant relationship endures through eternity. I don't believe the covenant with Christ is made in the resurrection, just as marriage is also not performed in the resurrection. Though there are certainly similarities to the covenant union we enter into with Christ, I don't believe that this covenant replaces the marriage covenant... if anything the opposite, reinforcing it.

"Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord." (1Cor 11:11)

"... ye husbands... give honour unto the wife... being heirs together of the grace of life..." (1 Peter 3:7)
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Old 10-15-2008, 04:42 AM
 
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Default The Nature of Death?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nero777 View Post
Yes, He did make a correlation, but it still leaves us both to interpreting how marriage will be in the endtime. I believe that Harris was right in saying we need to study and evaluate death and mortality as these are obvious factors in determining marriage in the afterlife. Until then, I agree with Nikk about marriage being a symbol of the relationship with Christ that we all are suppose to share. I can't really think of the verse right now, but isn't there somewhere in Scripture where Paul says "that as a man is the head of his wife, so is Christ the head of the Church". I've always interpreted this verse to mean what Nikk said. When we die, the relationship with Christ would be the real marriage and all others would be considered null and void. But I am open to the other argument, if we can find some Scripture that can give a more direct answer.
So I think most of us would agree that death is an essential element of mortality... even being perhaps the key component that defines mortality.

I believe death means a separation.... not necessarily an end. I believe there to be two deaths... spiritual death and physical death.

Spiritual death occurs when we are separated from God. This separation happened to Adam and Eve very soon after they partook of the fruit. Because of this fall... we are also born into a state out of the immediate presence of God... at least as we can discern.

Physical death occurs when our spirits are separated from our body. This also happened to Adam and Eve and happens to each of us.

(Freedom... I know there are some exceptions when a few have been translated.... however, I believe the infant to be without any personal sin... infants die all the time. Therefore as infants have no personal sin to overcome, overcoming in Christ our own sins is not enough to overcome death... the consequences of the fall of Adam, inherited by all, also must be overcome... Christ overcame the consequences of the fall of Adam, I believe for all. Therefore infants in their death, in Christ have already overcome all sin... therefore there must be other reasons behind translation... I don't believe it to be a blessing automatically given for overcoming sin. One purpose of translation I believe to be the transfer of keys of authority, which is done by the laying on of hands, which requires a physical body... which physical body would have to be present either by mortality.... translation.... or the resurrection. None were resurrected before Christ, therefore if there was to be any transfer of priesthood keys by the laying on of hands from those prior to Christ to any future time period... it had to happen by laying on of hands. Did Moses and Elijah possess priesthood keys of authority which needed to be returned and/or transferred?... Of course, we can talk about this topic more fully another time on another thread if you would like as our views may differ somewhat.)

Without Jesus Christ... both of these deaths would have been eternal. We would have eternally been separated from God and our spirits separate from our body. Both deaths, brought about by the Fall of Adam are inherited by all people. However, Jesus Christ overcame EVERY effect of death, both spiritual and physical. "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive." (1 Corinthians 15:22)

Note, this states ALL will be made alive. ALL will be resurrected, for physical death is a conseqence to all (generally speaking) of the fall of Adam. Furthermore, I believe ALL will be redeemed to the presence of God after the resurrection for the final judgement... thus spiritual death having been overcome for all as well. After the final judgement... being judged of our own sins... if there is to be a "second spiritual death" it will be due to our own sins and our own lack of union with Christ. In the end we will be judged for our own sins, not for Adam's transgression. If there is to be any further death (separation) it will not be because we inherited this as a consequence of the fall of Adam.

It is interesting that as part of this mission of death being overcome for ALL, as Paul states "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?" (1 Cor 15:29).... This however, is also a separate discussion.

So in summary thus far, Christ overcomes the effects of the Fall of Adam, spiritual and physical death, for ALL mankind. We are then left to be judged of our own sins... at which time we may suffer spiritual death again (the separation from the presence of God). However, this will be for our own sins, not Adam's transgression.

This may seem irrelevant to our current discussion... but it is not.

Did God create death? I do not believe God did... for God is a God of life, not Death.

I believe death, the two types of separation as described above, was a natural consequence of man choosing to follow Satan and disobey God.

God did not create death, but warned that death would be the result if He was not obeyed.

So who created death... one could argue then that death is not created... rather it is an abscense of creation... a separation. However, man brought about death through his own disobedience.

DEATH WAS NOT CREATED BY GOD.

If we presume death not to be created by God... then it cannot be an annullment of the marriage of Adam and Eve.

"What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder" (Mark 10:9)

Granted this verse is in the context of divorce. However, is death created from God? No. Death is a natural consequence of disobedience... it is either brought about by man's disobedience, or some would argue, even by Satan... either way I don't believe that either has the power or authority to "put asunder" what "God hath joined."

The fact that the institution of marriage was instituted in immortal beings shows to me that God does not view marriage as merely an institution of mortality. Death will not overcome the marriage sealed by the power and authority of God.. as was the marriage of Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve are married forever. Christ FULLY overcame death, to include all of its actual and potential consequences.

Adam and Eve are married forever.

What are the implications for us?

In Matthew 16:19 we read the words of Christ to Peter, "And I will give unto thee the keys of the kindgom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven... "

Was it not by these same keys and authority that Adam and Eve would have been married, these having come from God?

If a man and woman are "bound" by these keys that were given to Peter... then they must be considered "bound" in heaven as well.

In the account of the seven brothers and the one woman... they were married under the Law of Moses... a temporal law. They were not bound under keys which have binding power on heaven and on earth. Jesus never actually fully answered the Pharisees question, as pointed out earlier in this post. However, I believe unless married under an everlasting law (which is the law and grace of Christ) PRIOR to the resurrection, they would not be married forever for they are neither "marry nor are given in marriage in the resurrection."

The same keys that are necessary, at least in part to bind us as one to Christ on earth AND in Heaven (Matthew 16:19), I believe are also the same keys by which man and wife must be bound if their marriage is to endure not only on earth, but also in heaven.

It is by these keys, power and authority that Adam and Eve were bound. It is by these keys, power and authority that Adam and Eve, and all of us are bound to Christ (a binding which endures beyond death). It is by these same keys, power and authority that Adam and Eve are married forever.

Adam and Eve are married forever.

I believe we will be as well if married under the keys, power and authority given to Peter which binds "on earth AND in heaven" (Matthew 16:19) and if made "one in Christ."

"Neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord." (1 Cor 11:11)
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Old 10-15-2008, 04:52 AM
 
178 posts, read 278,607 times
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Default Yes.

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Originally Posted by Nero777 View Post
Well, there is one question that has arisen from what you said; hypothetically, what would a spiritual marriage in heaven look like when not centered on the carnal desires of the flesh and heart? How would it work and how would be different in the spirit when compared to the way we are now? Plus, does anyone have any Scripture outside the ones used that may support either freedom's or my stance? I look forward to hearing from you.

Yes, there are answers to these multiple questions and scripture to back these answers up. I believe many of these answers are present in the Bible.

You may have already known or assumed this, but I am a Latter-day Saint Christian (yes.. a "Mormon" which is a misnomer). I believe in additional revelations (I know... many of you are saying.. gasp... a heretic). In these other revelations, additional light is cast on these questions, which though answered in many cases already in the Bible, may not be as clearly answered in some instances in the Bible (thus the many religions present on the earth today).

If you are ever interested in discussing this further, I would be ammenable at another thread or PM's, or you can go to www.mormon.org or www.lds.org

Out of respect to fellow-Christians, in this thread I have used only Biblical references... mainly in an attempt to help them perhaps in further examining their own beliefs from a source they already accept as true... as well as to have a discussion which I feel has been fruitful and uplifting thus far without interjecting other conversations.
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