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Old 10-13-2008, 12:39 PM
 
4,541 posts, read 12,761,272 times
Reputation: 2277

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artsyguy,

In reference to your OP,...

It is not o.k., the things you described. And, God will judge them for these things.

I wish I could tell you that you will ever find a perfect church but churches are made up of people.
People who are all at different places in their walks... some may go to church their whole lives and may not even be saved.

The Bible gives us many scriptures to apply to these kinds of situations..

"Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn."

As a young christian, I became disillusioned with churches many times along the way. I was very idealistic. I expected all christians to be just like Jesus -- all of the time. It's easy to get your eyes on people and off of God -- or to blame God for their behavior.

While I don't make excuses for or condone their behavior, what I know now is how often I fail and need God's grace in my life.
And, I understand that we're all just people -- made of clay.

Every man is tempted when he's drawn away and enticed of his own lusts...

In today's world, it's so easy to be like Adam who tried to blame Eve for his decision to disobey God.
But, in the end, each of us will have to give an account to God for our personal choices.

It's obvious to me that Satan saw all of those young people seeking God and placed those people in that place to turn them away.

Regardless of all of these things and regardless of "all of the bad christians" in the world, it's still up to you what you're going to do with the wooing of the Holy Spirit and your choice about God's Son in your life.

I hope you find a way to see the Truth and seek His face!

God bless you,

WC

Last edited by World Citizen; 10-13-2008 at 12:59 PM..
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Old 10-13-2008, 03:06 PM
 
25,165 posts, read 47,306,817 times
Reputation: 6944
June I consider manipulation a form of lying. It is disgusting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th View Post
No.

Do not try and set me up; I didn't say that it was one big lie.

That is your faulty conclusion and misapropriation of what you have read.

I pointed out that it is hypocritical to say "I don't believe in psychology" and to the proceed to use pyschology as an underhanded means of trying to bring about one's own agenda. It's manipulative. And nobody likes to be manipulated. Especially if it is being done to them intentionally.

Do we "understand" one another, artsyguy?

Something tells me we do.
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Old 10-13-2008, 03:07 PM
 
25,165 posts, read 47,306,817 times
Reputation: 6944
Yes I agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oakback View Post
[/b][/color]


This theist would call it EVIL

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Old 10-13-2008, 03:39 PM
 
2,670 posts, read 3,551,670 times
Reputation: 1010
Quote:
Originally Posted by World Citizen View Post
artsyguy,

In reference to your OP,...

It is not o.k., the things you described. And, God will judge them for these things.

I wish I could tell you that you will ever find a perfect church but churches are made up of people.
People who are all at different places in their walks... some may go to church their whole lives and may not even be saved.

The Bible gives us many scriptures to apply to these kinds of situations..

"Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn."

As a young christian, I became disillusioned with churches many times along the way. I was very idealistic. I expected all christians to be just like Jesus -- all of the time. It's easy to get your eyes on people and off of God -- or to blame God for their behavior.

While I don't make excuses for or condone their behavior, what I know now is how often I fail and need God's grace in my life.
And, I understand that we're all just people -- made of clay.

Every man is tempted when he's drawn away and enticed of his own lusts...

In today's world, it's so easy to be like Adam who tried to blame Eve for his decision to disobey God.
But, in the end, each of us will have to give an account to God for our personal choices.

It's obvious to me that Satan saw all of those young people seeking God and placed those people in that place to turn them away.

Regardless of all of these things and regardless of "all of the bad christians" in the world, it's still up to you what you're going to do with the wooing of the Holy Spirit and your choice about God's Son in your life.

I hope you find a way to see the Truth and seek His face!

God bless you,

WC
good post!
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Old 10-13-2008, 03:57 PM
 
7,788 posts, read 10,444,975 times
Reputation: 3392
Quote:
Originally Posted by artsyguy View Post
June I consider manipulation a form of lying. It is disgusting.
Actually, it's a bit more subtle than that, but equally as undesirable.
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Old 10-14-2008, 07:45 AM
 
Location: USA
1,244 posts, read 2,821,039 times
Reputation: 765
I think that if things are done in a deceitful manner then it is wrong. God calls us to spread His love, the truth of His word, He however does not call us to be deceitful in how we go about it.

Jesus hung out with sinners, however, He never pretended to be one of them nor did He candy coat anything that they were doing in order to befriend them. Jesus hung out with them because He cared for their soul and He wished to lead them in truth. He stood for what He believed in and called sin sin. Again, no candy coating it to befriend them.

Now there is a difference between being friendly to someone, and being their friend. We are friendly when we deliver the message because God is about love and thus this friendly attitude is what we should reflect. It's like that saying, you attract more with honey than you do with vinegar. However, you don't have to pretend to be like them, or pretend to be their friend, in order to deliver the message of Gods love.

In fact, while my kids were growing up I always repeated something to them. I would tell them that yes they have to go to school and in doing so they associate with both believers and non-believers, however, if they as a believer were ever walking with an unbeliever (being friends) and there could not be seen a difference between the two of them, something was wrong with them (my kids) and their walk, not their friend. Why, because we are called to be the salt and light of this world. There should be a difference seen in us that draws people to Christ. Pretending to be like someone or a group of people that do not share your beliefs in order to pretend to be their friend with the hopes of winning them over to Christ sort of defeats the purpose. IMO.

As far as manipulation goes, I don't necessarily agree with manipulation, I do think it is a bit deceiving. However, I also do recognize that there are varying forms of things we may do that in essence are a sort of manipulation, though not being entirely deceitful. Take for example inviting unsaved family members to a Christmas performance at your church where your kids are in the play with the hopes that God will grab a hold of them and they would accept Jesus into their lives. In such case, your hope is that they will attend, receive the message and surrender their lives to Christ. However, if you tell them this out front they may be turned off from attending, yet, if you leave out the hopes of your heart and simply tell them "oh the kids are in this Christmas play at church, would love for you to come and see it (them)" they may be more open to attending and then you just leave the rest in God's hands.

Can that be seen as manipulating because you heart's intention is that they hear the message and surrender their lives? Ehhh yeah maybe. But is it truly deceitful and manipulative in a bad way. I mean the kids are in the play and you are telling them its at church and hopefully they should already know what you believe in.

I don't think all forms and levels of manipulation is necessarily lying, being deceitful though I do believe their is a very fine line that one needs to be very careful not to cross because I don't believe God wants us to ever be deceitful in our actions or words.
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Old 10-14-2008, 07:48 AM
 
Location: Charlotte, North Carolina
5,137 posts, read 15,094,482 times
Reputation: 1007
What I don't get is that any church leader would 'befriend' someone to try to convert them.

What would be the point of that? What would they gain in doing so?
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