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Old 10-13-2008, 11:57 AM
 
Location: RV Park
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reformed Liberal View Post
I don't understand what you mean, "misinterpret" the bible is very clear, that verse talks about dieing in your sins whatever it might be?
I didn't mean "misinterpret" (phones ringing/can't think), but misunderstood is more like it. The line we draw in the sand concerning judgement and compensation is one that we are familiar with as earthy - His ways are much higher than ours.
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Old 10-13-2008, 12:01 PM
 
Location: Pleasant Shade Tn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reformed Liberal View Post
but why, Couldn't He just die and then rise, why the whole sweating in the garden, the brutality he underwent not to mention the shame and degradation, last the crucifiction and what did it mean when it said, it pleased God to pour His wrath on Jesus.

He did all that so He could buy back the life, I don't get it and who was He buying it back from?
Well, it's obvious to me that he went through the mental torment and anguish because of his deep feeling of mankind. And it was prophesied that he would die a criminal's death. This was inevitable due to mankind's denial of him. I don't believe God received any pleasure from watching such things. It was a huge sacrifice on His part.

If you look up the term 'propitatory sacrifice', it makes it quite clear why he had to buy back mankind. Adam lost out on perfection when he sinned. He died for our sins, so that we could have the hope that Adam lost. I thought all Christians agreed on this point?
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Old 10-13-2008, 12:04 PM
 
Location: Pleasant Shade Tn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renriq02 View Post
19There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

So you believe that all of Jesus' illustrations were literal? You believe those in hell will be able to speak with those in heaven? You believe one drop of water will quench the fires of 'hell'? There is nothing in this illustration to lead me to conclude that there is actual burning place of torment reserved for the wicked. Wickedness is punishable by death...it's a common theme of the Old Testament and the new.
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Old 10-13-2008, 12:05 PM
 
Location: Charlotte, North Carolina
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Yes He was speaking as literal.

Jews believed in it, and they knew what he was speaking of.

Pharisees believed in it because they believe in the afterlife....as Saducees did not. This is documented when Paul said he was being persecuted because of the 'resurrection'.
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Old 10-13-2008, 12:13 PM
 
Location: Charlotte, North Carolina
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What do you think happened to those that were swallowed up by the earth when Moses came down from the mountain?

You need to remember that the bible was written by Jews.
Jews believed in Hell. There's nothing new in the NT

17The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God. For the needy shall not always be forgotten: the expectation of the poor shall not perish for ever.

hell -
shĕ'owl
1) sheol, underworld, grave, hell, pit

10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

15 Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them.

9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

16 I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit:

I would say it's all clear.
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Old 10-13-2008, 12:15 PM
 
Location: Pleasant Shade Tn
2,214 posts, read 5,003,722 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renriq02 View Post
Yes He was speaking as literal.

Jews believed in it, and they knew what he was speaking of.

Pharisees believed in it because they believe in the afterlife....as Saducees did not. This is documented when Paul said he was being persecuted because of the 'resurrection'.
Why do you feel he was speaking literally. Can you give me a reason. And can you provide to me proof that the jews at this time believed in a fiery hell?
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Old 10-13-2008, 12:18 PM
 
Location: Pleasant Shade Tn
2,214 posts, read 5,003,722 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renriq02 View Post
What do you think happened to those that were swallowed up by the earth when Moses came down from the mountain?

You need to remember that the bible was written by Jews.
Jews believed in Hell. There's nothing new in the NT

17The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God. For the needy shall not always be forgotten: the expectation of the poor shall not perish for ever.

hell -
shĕ'owl
1) sheol, underworld, grave, hell, pit

10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

15 Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them.

9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

16 I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit:

I would say it's all clear.
THe ones swallowed up by the earth died. They fell into the ground and were covered over. It was their grave.


The wicked shall be turned into 'hell'. This word in Greek is directly translated 'common grave'. In other words, they will be destroyed. This is why Jonah stated in Jonah 2:2 'out of the belly of hell I cried'. Because he knew the belly of the fish was apt to be his tomb.

Yes, I would say it is all clear as well. Every one of those scriptures refers to punishment by death. Ceasing to exist. The 'pit' is the grave...death...the enemy of mankind.
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Old 10-13-2008, 12:20 PM
 
Location: Charlotte, North Carolina
5,137 posts, read 15,122,831 times
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I already gave you the proof....

If you dont want to accept it then that's another issue.

Gehenna - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Quote:
Originally Posted by alicenavada View Post
Why do you feel he was speaking literally. Can you give me a reason. And can you provide to me proof that the jews at this time believed in a fiery hell?
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Old 10-13-2008, 12:23 PM
 
Location: Charlotte, North Carolina
5,137 posts, read 15,122,831 times
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28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
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Old 10-13-2008, 12:24 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,468,646 times
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I thought Jehovah Witnesses took the bible literally, that is what my friend always said.
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