U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 10-14-2008, 03:24 PM
 
3,553 posts, read 4,371,783 times
Reputation: 580

Advertisements

I really don't know how a person can conclude with thoughtful study, and prayer, that Jesus isn't God. There are too many verses to reasonably conclude this, starting with the name Immanuel which means "God with us".

Also the connection of the High Priest//KING blessing Abraham, the King of Righteousness, and the King of Peace. God "walking" with Adam, in the cool of the day. Jacob wrestling with?? Moses talking to?? Daniel seeing??

No one has seen God the Father at any time, so just by this reason alone, we can conclude that whoever was seeing the manifestation of the Word of God in the Old Testament would in fact have to be seeing the Word, as a man Jesus, before Jesus of Nazareth was born.

But that fact that the Word had taken on the form of His Creation, to die for us, without using ANY of His heavenly Power to prevent this?,, Goes to show you all the love He has for us, in redeeming us back to the Father. And the fact that He chooses to remain in this fleshly state, instead of His rightful Beginning that He was, shows you the magnitude of His devotion and promise to lead us to His Kingdom.

Think of it this way.

God exists before ALL. God spoke, and then by His action of just speaking, Jesus(the Word) existed. His Mouthpiece, so to speak. The Word of God. It was always there, just not manifested as such. Just as if I never spoke, my words are still there, though they haven't been brought out yet. They are me, and I them.

I know sometimes this can be really confusing, especially when time gets involved. Since God, in whatever form and image He is working in, is outside of this, He can pop in anytime in the past, present or future. So now Jesus, while remaining in the flesh, after death, can also do the same. Jesus could literally have made the earth, as the human being, indwelling in and with Father. Let us make man in OUR image, before man even existed??

Cooks the cookie, doesn't it?

When God told Moses to tell them "I AM" has sent you, you think this was the HOLY Father telling Him that? No one has EVER seen the Father, at ANY TIME! We can't, while in the flesh. Father is way, way too Holy for this.

Now maybe I have this all wrong, but this is how I see this.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 10-14-2008, 03:24 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,448,301 times
Reputation: 746
Quote:
Originally Posted by alicenavada View Post
You are reading too much into their reaction, methinks. Even if the Jews did think he was claiming equality with God, why should that matter?
LOL....(“We are not stoning you for any of these, replied the Jews, but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God”) What part am I reading into? Those are the Jew's own words. It doesn't matter if they were wrong or not, it was put in the bible for a reason

Quote:
They were obviously wrong about a great many things. And Jesus never claims to be God. If he was, I'm sure he would not have hidden it.
Oh you blessed child, Jesus couldn't reveal it out of mercy for the people. Why do think ONE of the reasons Jesus spoke in parables? Jesus’ veiling the truth from unbelievers this way was both an act of judgment and an act of mercy. It was judgment because it kept them in the darkness that they loved (John 3:19), but it was mercy because they had already rejected the light, so any exposure to more truth would only increase their condemnation.

Quote:
John 10:30 is such an odd scripture to prove that Jesus is God. The remaining verses of that chapter repeatedly show that he is his son. Later, he even prays to his father and asks that his apostles be 'one' 'just as you and I are one'.
There you go again, "odd" scripture". Another one you can't clearly interpret yet the Jews did because once again they wanted to kill Him.
You said, it is clear cut that Jesus is not God. I am saying to you that the bible blurs the line. You can at least give me that and by the way no one is disputing Jesus isn't the Son of God. He is but He is God

Quote:
If he and his father were the same, was he also asking that his apostles be melded together into one person? Of course not. It was a spiritual connection.
So it is still one. Did not Jesus say, just as I and the father are one, he wants us to be as one also?

Last edited by Fundamentalist; 10-14-2008 at 03:39 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-14-2008, 03:31 PM
 
Location: Pleasant Shade Tn
2,214 posts, read 4,995,171 times
Reputation: 545
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reformed Liberal View Post
LOL....I am not reading into anything. Those are the Jew's own words. It doesn't matter if they were wrong or not, it was put in the bible.

Oh you blessed child, Jesus couldn't reveal it out of mercy for the people. Why do think ONE of the reasons Jesus spoke in parables? Jesus’ veiling the truth from unbelievers this way was both an act of judgment and an act of mercy. It was judgment because it kept them in the darkness that they loved (John 3:19), but it was mercy because they had already rejected the light, so any exposure to more truth would only increase their condemnation.

There you go again, "odd" scripture". Another one you can't clearly interpret. You said, it is clear cut that Jesus is not God. I am saying to you that the bible blurs the line. You can at least give me that.

So it is still one. Did not Jesus say, just as I and the father are one, he wants us to be as one also?

Ewww, I smell condecension. Icky.

No need to interpret the scripture you mentioned. It's quite clear. They are in union, no? We are to be in union also, yes? I think we agree more than you think.


You say the bible brings up so many scriptures that make it 'clear' Jesus is God. May I bring up a couple that make it super cloudy?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-14-2008, 03:36 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,448,301 times
Reputation: 746
Quote:
Originally Posted by alicenavada View Post
Ewww, I smell condecension. Icky.

No need to interpret the scripture you mentioned. It's quite clear. They are in union, no? We are to be in union also, yes? I think we agree more than you think.
We agree on a few things, many not fully and if we don't have the same Jesus. I am sorry but we are NOT the same. Our Jesus are two entirely different persons


Quote:
You say the bible brings up so many scriptures that make it 'clear' Jesus is God. May I bring up a couple that make it super cloudy?
I read into the bible as that BUT do not forget Jesus is the Son of God and God himself co-eternal, co-equal.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-14-2008, 03:41 PM
 
Location: Pleasant Shade Tn
2,214 posts, read 4,995,171 times
Reputation: 545
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reformed Liberal View Post
We agree on a few things, many not fully and if we don't have the same Jesus. I am sorry but we are NOT the same. Our Jesus are two entirely different persons


I read into the bible as that BUT do not forget Jesus is the Son of God and God himself co-eternal, co-equal.

I agree with that. I do not pray to Jesus; I pray to Jehovah. We definitely worship different Gods. Speaking of prayer, who do you think Jesus was praying to?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-14-2008, 03:48 PM
 
3,576 posts, read 452,553 times
Reputation: 385
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reformed Liberal View Post

So it is still one. Did not Jesus say, just as I and the father are one, he wants us to be as one also?
So if God and the Holy Spirit and Jesus and the apostles are one then it is not a trinity (only 3) it is a 15 or 16 or lots more ...........

Quote:
I read into the bible as that BUT do not forget Jesus is the Son of God and God himself co-eternal, co-equal.


This is said in reference to the resurrection of Jesus

Acts 13:3 New American Standard Bible (©1995)
that God has fulfilled this promise to our children in that He raised up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm, 'YOU ARE MY SON; TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU.'

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
God has fulfilled the promise for us, their descendants, by bringing Jesus back to life. This is what Scripture says in the second psalm: 'You are my Son. Today I have become your Father.'

King James Bible
God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

G1080
γεννάω
gennaō
ghen-nah'-o
From a variation of G1085; to procreate (properly of the father, but by extension of the mother); figuratively to regenerate: - bear, beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be delivered of, gender, make, spring.

How can Jesus be begotton and co-eternal at the same time?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-14-2008, 03:48 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,448,301 times
Reputation: 746
Quote:
Originally Posted by alicenavada View Post
I agree with that. I do not pray to Jesus; I pray to Jehovah. We definitely worship different Gods. Speaking of prayer, who do you think Jesus was praying to?
I pray to Jehovah as well also to the Holy Spirit. They are three persons, co-existent, co-eternal, co-equal. I acknowledge all three when I pray.

Therefore one of us isn't Christian. Would you agree?

Jesus was praying to God the Father in the Garden.

I have a question for you. If Jesus is a created being, how can His death be sufficient for ALL of man's sins. remember sin offends God and even when we are gone, our sin will remain with God as long as He exist, which is eternal. How is a created being (Jesus) sufficient enough to appease an eternal God?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-14-2008, 03:55 PM
 
3,576 posts, read 452,553 times
Reputation: 385
John 20:17

King James Bible
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

If Jesus was God why was he telling Mary that he was going to his God and Mary's God
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-14-2008, 04:00 PM
 
Location: Pleasant Shade Tn
2,214 posts, read 4,995,171 times
Reputation: 545
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reformed Liberal View Post
I pray to Jehovah as well also to the Holy Spirit. They are three persons, co-existent, co-eternal, co-equal. I acknowledge all three when I pray.

Therefore one of us isn't Christian. Would you agree?

Jesus was praying to God the Father in the Garden.

I have a question for you. If Jesus is a created being, how can His death be sufficient for ALL of man's sins. remember sin offends God and even when we are gone, our sin will remain with God as long as He exist, which is eternal. How is a created being (Jesus) sufficient enough to appease an eternal God?
Yes, I acknowledge all three as well-per the model prayer in Matthew.

Does that really make sense to you? Jesus was praying to 'God the Father'? It makes absolutely no sense to me. And I see no evidence of it in the scriptures. Where does it say that God the Son was praying to God the Father. Why would he do that? If they are co-equal, what could he possibly need to pray for? And why does he state 'The Father is Greater Than I Am' if they are co-equal?

You keep saying 'if jesus is a created being'. Do you not agree that he is?

I already answered that last question. Read back.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-14-2008, 04:09 PM
 
Location: God's Country
21,416 posts, read 29,533,607 times
Reputation: 29917
Yes God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit....three different roles, but all the same, one in essence.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top