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Old 10-15-2008, 07:59 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alicenavada View Post
Yes, I acknowledge all three as well-per the model prayer in Matthew.

Does that really make sense to you? Jesus was praying to 'God the Father'? It makes absolutely no sense to me. And I see no evidence of it in the scriptures. Where does it say that God the Son was praying to God the Father. Why would he do that? If they are co-equal, what could he possibly need to pray for? And why does he state 'The Father is Greater Than I Am' if they are co-equal?

You keep saying 'if jesus is a created being'. Do you not agree that he is?

I already answered that last question. Read back.
Quick! Alicenavada. I have a knife in my back and I have 5 minutes left to live. I have been a sinner all my life, done the most despicable things and I am scared of what comes after but I don't know what to do.

How do I obtain eternal life?
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Old 10-15-2008, 08:26 AM
 
Location: Pleasant Shade Tn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
John 20:28
Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

Thomas was speaking confessionally, not in using Gods name in vain.

Matthew 4:7
Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.' "
(the devils temptation of Jesus)

John 1:1-2, 14
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning....The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us
We have already addressed the Thomas issue. Those of us who don't believe the trinity seem to agree that Thomas was speaking in wonderment and praise. Jesus did not correct him, therefore I don't believe he was rendering Jesus undue honor. He could very well have been speaking to God AND Jesus here.

Jesus response to the Devil about temptation does not lead me to believe that Jesus is talking about himself. Doesnt the Devil say in verse 6- 'If you are a son of God, hurl yourself down for it is written 'He will give his angels a charge concerning you, and they will carry you on their hands, that you may at no time strike your foot against a stone'. Then, in verse 7, Jesus said to him 'Again it is written 'you must not put Jehovah your God to the test'. The reason we know Jesus spoke the name of God here is that he was quoting from the Old Testament. The KJ bible and many other translations seem to conveniently ignore this fact. So there is definitely a diferentiation between Father and Son.

We have addressed the John 1:1 scripture as well. While there has been some debate about it, I feel that the absence of a definite article before the 2nd noun 'theos' is noteworthy. It should actually read 'The Word was with God and the the Word was a god.' Or '...the word was divine'. I'm not asking you to agree w/ this reasoining but it makes much more sense to me. Also, since JOhn 1:18 says 'no man has seen God at any time', it is also less contradictory.
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Old 10-15-2008, 08:29 AM
 
Location: Pleasant Shade Tn
2,214 posts, read 3,743,972 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reformed Liberal View Post
Quick! Alicenavada. I have a knife in my back and I have 5 minutes left to live. I have been a sinner all my life, done the most despicable things and I am scared of what comes after but I don't know what to do.

How do I obtain eternal life?

That's a wierd question for a Trinity thread isnt it? Short and sweet: The bible says 'there will be a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous, the righteous to a ressurection of life, the wicked for a ressurection of judgement'. It is up to God who deserves to be given this chance. Not me.
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Old 10-15-2008, 08:32 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alicenavada View Post
That's a wierd question for a Trinity thread isnt it? Short and sweet: The bible says 'there will be a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous, the righteous to a ressurection of life, the wicked for a ressurection of judgement'. It is up to God who deserves to be given this chance. Not me.
I am dieing and I have no clue what that means
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Old 10-15-2008, 08:35 AM
 
Location: Pleasant Shade Tn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reformed Liberal View Post
I am dieing and I have no clue what that means

I'm not sure what you're asking me. Are you saying that I am present for this stabbing and you are leaning on me in fear? This is wierd. Okay, if so, I would first of all find you a doctor. I wouldnt be trying to save you spiritually if the situation were that dire.
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Old 10-15-2008, 08:50 AM
 
8,990 posts, read 8,799,682 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alicenavada View Post
Yes, I acknowledge all three as well-per the model prayer in Matthew.

Jesus

Does that really make sense to you? Jesus was praying to 'God the Father'? It makes absolutely no sense to me. And I see no evidence of it in the scriptures. Where does it say that God the Son was praying to God the Father. Why would he do that? If they are co-equal, what could he possibly need to pray for? And why does he state 'The Father is Greater Than I Am' if they are co-equal?
Sorry, made a huge mistake about the co-equal part-got carried away in the context and why can't he pray to the Father. What's wrong with that? we need to realize that the eternal Father and the eternal Son had an eternal relationship before Jesus took upon Himself humanity.

(John 5:19)
19 "Jesus gave them this answer: “I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, to your amazement he will"


(John 15)
"10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love"

Quote:
You keep saying 'if jesus is a created being'. Do you not agree that he is?
I thought we established that. No, Jesus has always been the Son Of God before the creation began, Jesus is eternal just like the Father- co-existent, co-eternal

(John 10:30)
30 "I and the Father are one.”
Jesus meant that He and His Father, and of course the Holy Spirit, were of the same substance, the same essence, God or deity. Three co-equal persons existing as God. These three had and continue to have an eternal relationship.

Last edited by Fundamentalist; 10-15-2008 at 09:03 AM..
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Old 10-15-2008, 08:55 AM
 
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Funny, anytime I ever tried reading in between the lines , all I've ever seen is empty space.

Go figure
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Old 10-15-2008, 09:02 AM
 
Location: Pleasant Shade Tn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reformed Liberal View Post
Sorry, made a huge mistake about the co-equal part-got carried away and why can't he pray to the Father. What's wrong with that? we need to realize that the eternal Father and the eternal Son had an eternal relationship before Jesus took upon Himself humanity.

(John 5:19)
19 "Jesus gave them this answer: “I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, to your amazement he will"


(John 15)
"10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love"

I thought we established that. No, Jesus has always been the Son Of God before the creation began, Jesus is eternal just like the Father- co-existent, co-eternal

(John 10:30)
30 "I and the Father are one.”
Jesus meant that He and His Father, and of course the Holy Spirit, were of the same substance, the same essence, God or deity. Three co-equal persons existing as God. These three had and continue to have an eternal relationship.
Don't you see why I find this concept hard to grasp? It is so much easier to understand and explain the handful of scriptures people use to back up the Trinity doctrine than to explain the myriads of scriptures that seperate the Father and Son entirely. The had a 'relationship', in you own words. This is not a word that can be used w/in oneself. It involves seperateness. John 5:19 makes this quite clear.

I understand that you feel John 10:30 means they are the same person but since , as I mentioned before, he said shortly afterwards that he wanted his disciples to be one JUST as he and the Father are one, I don't see how you can still feel that he is claiming to be his Father. He meant they were to be unified in thought and purpose, as he and his Father have always been. You also have to remember Mark 13:32 that states there are some things the Father knows that no one else, including the son, does. If they were one person, one entity, they would know the same things.

The Council of Nicaea was hugely debated, as you well know. If the Trinity were a doctrine easy to explain, it wouldnt have been. If it were believed and accepted by all Christians, there would have been no need for the Council. God is not one of 'disorder, but of peace.' How is this a peaceful teaching? It has always been a subject of controversy.

And if Christ has always been, how is that he is referred to as the 'firstborn of all creation'? You don't feel this shows that he had a beginning,evidently.

Last edited by alicenevada; 10-15-2008 at 09:10 AM..
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Old 10-15-2008, 09:25 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alicenavada View Post
Don't you see why I find this concept hard to grasp? It is so much easier to understand and explain the handful of scriptures people use to back up the Trinity doctrine than to explain the myriads of scriptures that seperate the Father and Son entirely. The had a 'relationship', in you own words. This is not a word that can be used w/in oneself. It involves seperateness. John 5:19 makes this quite clear.
There is way more than a handful. If we are made in God's image, what does that mean? We love therefore God loves, we have a sense of justice therefore God is just, we humans seek companionship or relationship, therefore God seeks relationship. what is His image?
If God is love then He couldn't have started loving after the creation because He is love therefore He has always loved, what did He love? and if he is eternal then He must have loved eternally, what then did He love eternally before the creation?

Quote:
I understand that you feel John 10:30 means they are the same person but since , as I mentioned before, he said shortly afterwards that he wanted his disciples to be one JUST as he and the Father are one, I don't see how you can still feel that he is claiming to be his Father. He meant they were to be unified in thought and purpose, as he and his Father have always been. You also have to remember Mark 13:32 that states there are some things the Father knows that no one else, including the son, does. If they were one person, one entity, they would know the same things.
When Jesus took human form it is not unreasonable to think He suppressed His abilities as God, but after His death, all was restored including His abilities and knowledge.

Quote:
The Council of Nicae was hugely debated, as you well know. If the Trinity were a doctrine easy to explain, it wouldnt have been. If it were believed and accepted by all Christians, there would have been no need for the Council. God is not one of 'disorder, but of peace.' How is this a peaceful teaching? It has always been a subject of controversy.
Because if God (A God who's ways and thoughts are higher than ours, a God that doesn't reside in our finite realm, A god who is described as "unapproachable light") was easily explainable then He wouldn't be God. BUT I believe it is way more of a stretch to believe that Jesus was Michael arch-angel than the Trinity

Quote:
And if Christ has always been, how is that he is referred to as the 'firstborn of all creation'. You don't feel this shows that he had a beginning,evidently.
Yes first born "OF" all creation not first born "IN" all creation, "He is before all things and in him all things hold together." The biblical meaning poured into the word "firstborn" doesn't mean the first one born but the preeminent one or the one who holds the prime position.

Ephraim, in the Old Testament, is referred to as the Lord's "firstborn" even though Manasseh was born first.

David is appointed the Lord's "firstborn, the most exalted of the kings of the earth," and this is despite the fact that he's the youngest of Jesse's sons. Neither Ephraim nor David was the first one born in the family, but they were firstborn in the sense of preeminence or "prime position."

This has nothing to do with creation.

I am sorry but even though you say, you don't take the bible literally it sure looks like you do. I do as well but it must be in the proper context.

Last edited by Fundamentalist; 10-15-2008 at 09:50 AM..
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Old 10-15-2008, 09:46 AM
 
Location: Pleasant Shade Tn
2,214 posts, read 3,743,972 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reformed Liberal View Post
If God is love, what did He love? and if he is eternal then He must have loved eternally, what then did He love eternally before the creation?
God is love in that he created all out of love for us. I believe he created his son first, then the heavenly creatures, then the physical universe. I believe the bible supports this.

Firstborn= beginning. 'Born' beings brought into existence. I'm sorry but this is not feasible as an argument for eternal existence, to me.

I do take the bible literally in many ways. But my thorough study has led me to understand when figurative language is being used. I agree that context is absolutely imparative when it comes to using your 'power of reason'. And this is why I choose not to believe the Trinity doctrine.
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