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Old 10-17-2008, 11:21 AM
 
3,086 posts, read 5,561,142 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
but God is able to reach into us and turn our hearts and change our will - but this is done through the same suffering as His Son; as it is written, the servent is not greater than his Lord.
If this is the case, why the encouragements to remain faithful, to endure, to fight?

I agree that it is only by God's grace we can come to Him.. but it is our will responding to His call, not an act of God causing our will to become His.
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Old 10-17-2008, 11:23 AM
 
3,086 posts, read 5,561,142 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curlythecosmo View Post
To:cg81!
About the free will thing.... as I was reading this morning through this thread.... the Lord brought to my heart the scripture in the last chapter of Revelations.... if one doesn't have free will, how then would one explain this scripture?

Rev. 23:18-19
"For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophesy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophesy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Now to me that is so stating one has free will... why would God curse a life out of the Book of Life and from the holy city and from the things written, if God did not give the human soul the choice to choose.
With what I have read in this thread it just does not add up to what UR teaches, compared to the scripture and that is what the Lord tells us to do.. that if anyone brings a doctrine to us we are to line it up with the word of God!!!
And the not having free will does not go with the word of God.... He does give us a choice!!
Absolutely... the Word, when read with eyes looking for truth, tells us that we are responsible to make sure we are following God's will.. and it is very simple, even though "difficult" for the flesh! That is why there are teachings that deny this...
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Old 10-17-2008, 11:57 AM
 
Location: RV Park
7,543 posts, read 11,548,929 times
Reputation: 4461
Quote:
Originally Posted by cg81 View Post
If this is the case, why the encouragements to remain faithful, to endure, to fight?

I agree that it is only by God's grace we can come to Him.. but it is our will responding to His call, not an act of God causing our will to become His.
I can't give us any credit at all, I'm sorry. I focus on all the scripture that gives Him glory.
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Old 10-17-2008, 01:35 PM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 13,812,679 times
Reputation: 1323
Quote:
Sorry... Paul came nowhere CLOSE to teaching UR.
Hi, I disagree:

Romans 8:18-22
18. For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.19. For the anxious longing of the creation/creature waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.20. For the creation/creature was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope21. that the creation/creature itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.22. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.

hope=elpis-expectation


1 Corinthians 15:16-28
16. For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised;17. and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.18. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.19. If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.20. But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.21. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.22. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.23. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,24. then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.25. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.26. The last enemy that will be abolished is death.27. For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.28. When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

Colossians 1:15-20
15. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.16. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him.17. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.18. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.19. For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,20. and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

Ephesians 1: 5-10
"He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, which He lavished upon us. In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fulness of the times, that is the summing up of all things in Christ


There are the writings of Paul who was an apostle of the Lord.

One who is a slave, is not free. The creation/creature is to be delivered. Every tongue will confess/give praise to Him, every knee will bow. All will be made subject to Him. All will be summed up, gathered together again, reunited in Him. Where is free will in this? God's will will be done. We may be be able to temporarily resist, rebel but eventually will return to Him, for from Him, through Him, and to Him are all things (Romans by Paul).

If you make a choice to follow Jesus, why do you make this choice? Is it the result of your free will or did something or someone influence you like the word of God? Did God have anything to do with this? How did you even come to hear about Jesus and what He has done for us? Did God have anything to do with it?

Jesus says that He will draw all men to Himself and this is some kind of force whether we like it or not. It's about God's work in the creation fulfilling His purpose for mankind. God bless.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 10-17-2008 at 02:40 PM..
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Old 10-17-2008, 08:43 PM
 
2,945 posts, read 4,770,451 times
Reputation: 1603
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha8207 View Post
I did?

If I did then what I said on UR benefit was the following:

If God doesn't fit what you think He should be and how He should operate, then change Him to fit you, rather than you to fit Him.

Thanks for your honesty, spm62. That's what I've been saying about URs for almost 2 years now.
Thanks for your honesty. We all know what YOU`VE been saying. I`m more interested in what the bible says though.
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Old 10-17-2008, 09:50 PM
 
Location: God's Country
21,416 posts, read 29,529,737 times
Reputation: 29917
Quote:
Originally Posted by cg81 View Post
Sorry... Paul came nowhere CLOSE to teaching UR.
You are absolutely correct!
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Old 10-17-2008, 10:26 PM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 13,812,679 times
Reputation: 1323
Quote:
Romans 8:18-22
18. For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.19. For the anxious longing of the creation/creature waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.20. For the creation/creature was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope21. that the creation/creature itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.22. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.

hope=elpis-expectation


1 Corinthians 15:16-28
16. For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised;17. and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.18. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.19. If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.20. But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.21. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.22. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.23. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,24. then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.25. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.26. The last enemy that will be abolished is death.27. For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.28. When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

Colossians 1:15-20
15. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.16. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him.17. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.18. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.19. For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,20. and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

Ephesians 1: 5-10
"He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, which He lavished upon us. In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fulness of the times, that is the summing up of all things in Christ


There are the writings of Paul who was an apostle of the Lord.
Quote:
If you make a choice to follow Jesus, why do you make this choice? Is it the result of your free will or did something or someone influence you like the word of God? Did God have anything to do with this? How did you even come to hear about Jesus and what He has done for us? Did God have anything to do with it?
Any comments? Is God able to accomplish whatever He intends to do? Just asking. God bless.
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Old 10-17-2008, 11:19 PM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,565,258 times
Reputation: 843
Quote:
Originally Posted by cg81 View Post
... and many, many more. In fact, the predominant message of Paul's letters is encouragement to faithfulness, which would be nonsensical if he was teaching UR, which teaches no free will.

That would be like telling a robot on auto-pilot, heading for a precipice.. "Be careful you don't fall over the edge!"

It is obvious that we must endure to the end in this life in order to be saved.
We have a huge gap in understanding here. It's not what you do that saves you - it's who you are. Only that which is born of God overcomes the world (and it always does). Only a 'son' wills God's will. The nebulous free-will entity you believe in does not exist.

That which is born of spirit is spirit and that which is born of flesh is flesh.

So, you end up in the unenviable position of trying to conform your 'self' into agreement with something you see as a foreign will (God's) and if successful you can free-will yourself right into the kingdom.

"Who were born not of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God".

I see that in the Armenian universe choice and free-will reign as God and are God, not God Himself.

Without some sort of epiphany I'm pretty my points make no sense to you, right?

BTW, did I nail the itching ears "own lusts" doctrine question for you? It's pretty obvious that's what the health/wealth doctrine is all about, no?
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Old 10-17-2008, 11:31 PM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 13,812,679 times
Reputation: 1323
I agree with you, Firstborn that we don't have free will. God works all things according to the counsel of His will, that His is the only free will.


Quote:
In fact, the predominant message of Paul's letters is encouragement to faithfulness, which would be nonsensical if he was teaching UR, which teaches no free will.
I just wanted to share that some Christians who believe in universal restoration also believe in free will. All do not agree on each and everything just as it might be for other Christians. For example, Tom Talbott

The Essential Role of Free Will in Universal Reconciliation

But what he refers to as free will to me is self will. It is not totally free. God still operates all in accordance with His intentions,despite whatever choices we may make which we may believe to be the result of free will.


Quote:
God will not permit any of us to cling forever to our illusions or to remain forever ignorant of the true nature of our selfish choices. We are free to sin and perhaps even to sin with relative impunity for awhile, but in no way are we free to sin with impunity forever...God's holy love is like a consuming fire (see Hebrews 12:29); it will continue to burn us until it finally purges us of all that is false within us. The more we freely rebel against it and try to defeat it, the more deeply and inexorably it will burn, until every conceivable motive for disobedience is consumed and we are finally transformed from the inside out. ...As long as a single will remains in a state of rebellion against Christ,so long as a single person is able to cling to his or her hatred of God, at least one power in the universe— the power of that person’s will— is not yet in subjection to Christ.

T. Talbott

http://www.willamette.edu/~ttalbott/theol.html

St. Paul's Universalism


God bless.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 10-18-2008 at 12:28 AM..
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Old 10-18-2008, 09:27 AM
 
Location: RV Park
7,543 posts, read 11,548,929 times
Reputation: 4461
It's not only inconceivable, but free will is diametrically opposed to His word and will. We're in a confined area - much like a fenced in backyard - in which our wills seem free but are limited nonetheless.
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