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Old 10-21-2008, 08:24 AM
 
3,627 posts, read 12,445,646 times
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Anyway you cut it, abortion is a tragedy, but I don't know that tigher and tigher laws are the answer. Sometimes the only choice in life is to sin and we must pick the lesser sin.

I would not have a woman die if a partial birth abortion was necessary to save her life. I would say that would be a very very very rare condition, but no, and that is why Obama was opposed to that [though he is definitely pro-choice].

Rape / Incest? John McCain is ok with abortions under these circumstances but if you see it as a black and white issue as many do, how can you reconcile this?

Prevention? Many who would stop abortion would also stop sex education and prevention measures, such as free condoms etc.. Sex has been with us for a long long time and is not going away - and much of the problem I think is our bodies are maturing even more quickly than they used to and well before our minds have caught up yet we are older and older before we marry. Also the same folks who want to ban abortion also often want to cut programs to "care for the unwanted" kids - If we force a woman to carry them to term, we need to figure out how to shoulder the responsiblity to nurture that child and prevent the cycle from recurring.

WHO is having the abortions? Is there a demographic?
How can we target that group to prevent the pregnancies?

I am for freedom of choice because I think laws proscribing morality have time and time failed. I am also for doing everything possible to prevent the pregnancies in the first place and to support, as a country, options for carrying a baby to term. Those who have money can still get around them, those who don't often perform risky back-alley procedures creating more havoc than a medical procedure.

Definitely not easy
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Old 10-21-2008, 08:52 AM
 
4,439 posts, read 8,072,782 times
Reputation: 1461
Quote:
Originally Posted by renriq02 View Post
Daughter, I was making a point that the Americans had NOTHING to do with 20% of the car bombs, which have really nothing to do with the Iraqi war.
Still waiting to see where I called Americans Terrorists.

Still waiting kid.
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Old 10-21-2008, 08:54 AM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,470,092 times
Reputation: 746
Quote:
Originally Posted by grannynancy View Post
Anyway you cut it, abortion is a tragedy, but I don't know that tigher and tigher laws are the answer. Sometimes the only choice in life is to sin and we must pick the lesser sin.

Definitely not easy
(John 8:11)
11 She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "I do not condemn you, either Go From now on sin no more."

It is easy it's just that we don't want to do God's will.

Quote:
I am for freedom of choice because I think laws proscribing morality have time and time failed
Murder, stealing etc... laws have failed?
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Old 10-21-2008, 08:58 AM
 
Location: Whiteville Tennessee
8,262 posts, read 16,002,814 times
Reputation: 10024
Quote:
Originally Posted by renriq02 View Post
When was I condemning this country?

If I said destruction is coming then that's inevitable.

I dont recall writing that I'm 'praying for this country to fall'
I was refering to the OP's statement wishing for the economic ruin of America. Not to you renriq. sorry for the confusion.
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Old 10-21-2008, 09:00 AM
 
Location: Charlotte, North Carolina
5,137 posts, read 15,122,831 times
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Daughter, why would you mix in all the casualties with the US?

Don't try to tell me I dont have American Pride or that my family doesn't.

If you would've learned anything from your father then you would know that HONOR means everything.


Obama supports FOCA and that's it. If the two parties wouldn't have brought up or affiliated themselves with abortion/gay rights, then everyone would be focused on the candidates.

The sad part is that Obama has no experience, and he's going to make crazy decisions if he becomes POTUS

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigthirsty View Post
Still waiting to see where I called Americans Terrorists.

Still waiting kid.
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Old 10-21-2008, 09:01 AM
 
3,627 posts, read 12,445,646 times
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So, it is not a sin to allow a woman to die because she may need to abort the child to live?

Was it not a sin when Dietrich Bonhoeffer enetered into a plan to assassinate Adolf Hitler. Rev Bonhoeffer thought it was a sin, but a lesser sin.

Is not war always a sin but, at times, it may be the lesser sin?

Do not sins show our brokeness from the Lord and do not the Old Testament laws show us that, by our own resources, we are incapable of being without sin as that is the nature of the flest?
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Old 10-21-2008, 09:29 AM
 
4,439 posts, read 8,072,782 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renriq02 View Post
Daughter, why would you mix in all the casualties with the US?
Are we not to talk about the cost of the war in totality?

Quote:
Originally Posted by renriq02 View Post
Don't try to tell me I dont have American Pride or that my family doesn't.
I didn't "try" to tell you anything. I simply said your flippant regard to troop deaths is very telling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by renriq02 View Post
If you would've learned anything from your father then you would know that HONOR means everything.
You have no basis from which to draw conclusions concerning what I've learned from my father. However, I do have your words with a cute little rolling of the eyes when talking about troop deaths.

Quote:
Originally Posted by renriq02 View Post
Obama supports FOCA and that's it. If the two parties wouldn't have brought up or affiliated themselves with abortion/gay rights, then everyone would be focused on the candidates.
I don't understand your point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by renriq02 View Post
The sad part is that Obama has no experience, and he's going to make crazy decisions if he becomes POTUS
Perfectly subjective opinion based on skewed facts as you see them.



Still waiting for the example where I called Americans Terrorists...

Still waiting..
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Old 10-21-2008, 09:31 AM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,470,092 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grannynancy View Post
So, it is not a sin to allow a woman to die because she may need to abort the child to live?
First of all I believe the statistic is in the 1 percentile of that happening, second a woman (I can't remember her name) did the ultimate sacrifice and allowed her baby to live. I cried when I heard the story. She will receive much reward in heaven, but it's not a sin. The doctor tries to save both but if the child is lost in the process, we weep for the loss of the child.
Quote:
Was it not a sin when Dietrich Bonhoeffer enetered into a plan to assassinate Adolf Hitler. Rev Bonhoeffer thought it was a sin, but a lesser sin.

Is not war always a sin but, at times, it may be the lesser sin?
Is it a sin when you prevent something bad from happening. Would it be sin for a German family hiding Jews in their house to lie to Nazis. Those men knew killing Hitler would probably mean the end to their lives one way or another

Quote:

Do not sins show our brokeness from the Lord and do not the Old Testament laws show us that, by our own resources, we are incapable of being without sin as that is the nature of the flest?
Yes we are sinful creatures by nature BUT God did give us a brain and we have the spirit of discernment. Sin is selfishness, giving into our own pleasures and desires, wants and needs. When we commit a so called "sin" to save a life or lives, prevent others from harm. How is that a sin?
I guess in a radical way Jesus "committed suicide" because He knew and even instigated His demise.

(John 15:13)

13" "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends"
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Old 10-21-2008, 09:32 AM
 
Location: Charlotte, North Carolina
5,137 posts, read 15,122,831 times
Reputation: 1008
I would love for you to tell any Marine that.

Flippant regard? puh - lease.
Because I didn't use the 'exact' number of deaths.
Oh yea that makes me unamerican.

Enough is enough!

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigthirsty View Post
Are we not to talk about the cost of the war in totality?



I didn't "try" to tell you anything. I simply said your flippant regard to troop deaths is very telling.



You have no basis from which to draw conclusions concerning what I've learned from my father. However, I do have your words with a cute little rolling of the eyes when talking about troop deaths.



I don't understand your point.



Perfectly subjective opinion based on skewed facts as you see them.



Still waiting for the example where I called Americans Terrorists...

Still waiting..
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Old 10-21-2008, 09:53 AM
 
3,627 posts, read 12,445,646 times
Reputation: 2682
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post

Is it a sin when you prevent something bad from happening. Would it be sin for a German family hiding Jews in their house to lie to Nazis. Those men knew killing Hitler would probably mean the end to their lives one way or another
Yes, it is a sin, because lying is a sin and a sign of our brokeness with God. We do not get to choose what is and is not a sin. However, it is a greater sin to allow the the Nazi's to know about / kill the family. We do not live in a world where everything is black and white. We must make choices weighting, with God's help, the best thing to do for the situation. To me that is an important distinction between the old and the new testament ways of thinking. The new way is decidedly harder and requires us to have a strong relationship with our creator and our saviour and rely on his spirit to infuse us with wisdom and discernement to make the right decision.

Bonhoeffer was caught, ministered to his captors in prison until the end, when he was executed. He died as the result of his actions but wrote some wonderful works that will live on concerning life as a Christian and living in the balance.
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