Not all Christians are going to Heaven (crucified, gnostic, abortion)

[brianrees]

Originally Posted by grannynancy

Brian I really have a question

The thread is titled "not all Christians go to Heaven"

If you don't believe you are a Christian [and it seems like maybe you are not], and don't believe in heaven or hell then why do you care about the topic at hand?

Call me cynical, but is this the politest way possible of telling me to bow out of this Christian-themed forum? No? -- I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, grannynancy.

Let me turn the question around slightly. Are YOU certain of getting into Heaven? I guess you will answer that your Eternal Fate rests in the hands of your Redeemer, as most believers would probably say.

Nevertheless, here we have yet another dilemma. That is, you may be forced to choose between believing in the Book of Revelation, or having to disregard its contents.

I refer, of course, to chapters 7 and 14 where Saint John names a very specific figure, 144,000 as being the total number of souls who will be admitted to Heaven after the Day of Judgement.

Many scholars seem to agree that what John had in mind were the 12 tribes of Israel, each of which would be limited to 12,000 souls who would qualify to enter Heaven (Hence the 144,000).

This, you will agree, is a VERY limited number indeed, given how many good people have existed down the millennia who have every expectation of being 'Saved'. So if Saint John is to be believed, according to his somewhat hallucinogenic Gospel, - there are going to be many millions of disappointed believers.

At this point, I fully expect some self-appointed Biblical Authority to come charging into the fray with all guns blazing to offer all kinds of convoluted re-interpretations of this particularly inconvenient piece of scripture.

So let me say, right at the start, please save your time, because no-one can possibly have the key to this conundrum other than to go with the literal meaning. (Just as they accept the literal meaning of the rest of the bible, it appears).

Where does that leave us, then?

I may be right after all not to follow NorthSouth's example and deny myself the simple pleasures of this world, because HIS chances of Making it to Heaven are, with respect, as slim as mine, according to Revelations.

So, you see, I DO care about the topic in hand simply because certain religious people spend a lot of their time trying to persuade us gay folk of the error of our ways. (Well, not so much here in the UK, fortunately, but it seems to be a huge issue in the States).

As so few of us are destined to enjoy the bliss of an eternal reward, I don't think it too unreasonable to conclude that we may as well make the most of our lives on the 'broad path' - as choosing the 'narrow' one will lead us nowhere, other than the disappointment of being turned away at the Pearly Gates.

Just a thought...

[Ilene Wright]

Originally Posted by brianrees

Call me cynical, but is this the politest way possible of telling me to bow out of this Christian-themed forum? No? -- I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, grannynancy.

Let me turn the question around slightly. Are YOU certain of getting into Heaven? I guess you will answer that your Eternal Fate rests in the hands of your Redeemer, as most believers would probably say.

Nevertheless, here we have yet another dilemma. That is, you may be forced to choose between believing in the Book of Revelation, or having to disregard its contents.

I refer, of course, to chapters 7 and 14 where Saint John names a very specific figure, 144,000 as being the total number of souls who will be admitted to Heaven after the Day of Judgement.

Many scholars seem to agree that what John had in mind were the 12 tribes of Israel, each of which would be limited to 12,000 souls who would qualify to enter Heaven (Hence the 144,000).

This, you will agree, is a VERY limited number indeed, given how many good people have existed down the millennia who have every expectation of being 'Saved'. So if Saint John is to be believed, according to his somewhat hallucinogenic Gospel, - there are going to be many millions of disappointed believers.

At this point, I fully expect some self-appointed Biblical Authority to come charging into the fray with all guns blazing to offer all kinds of convoluted re-interpretations of this particularly inconvenient piece of scripture.

So let me say, right at the start, please save your time, because no-one can possibly have the key to this conundrum other than to go with the literal meaning. (Just as they accept the literal meaning of the rest of the bible, it appears).

Where does that leave us, then?

I may be right after all not to follow NorthSouth's example and deny myself the simple pleasures of this world, because HIS chances of Making it to Heaven are, with respect, as slim as mine, according to Revelations.

So, you see, I DO care about the topic in hand simply because certain religious people spend a lot of their time trying to persuade us gay folk of the error of our ways. (Well, not so much here in the UK, fortunately, but it seems to be a huge issue in the States).

As so few of us are destined to enjoy the bliss of an eternal reward, I don't think it too unreasonable to conclude that we may as well make the most of our lives on the 'broad path' - as choosing the 'narrow' one will lead us nowhere, other than the disappointment of being turned away at the Pearly Gates.

Just a thought...

I think granny made some good points. I've been following along, trying to stay out of the forum for certain reasons, but it appears that certain reasons have gone away for the moment. So here I am to offer my 2 pennies worth once again.

I'm no Biblical scholar, but you are right, there will be plenty of offerings as to what the 144,000 is referring to. The only people I know of who take this literal is Jehovah's Witnesses and I certainly don't want to get into that. Needless to say I don't agree.

There are many things in the Bible that are symbolic, and the 144,000 is one of them. I've read your posts, and you are using whatever you can to justify your sins. Twisting scriptures to justify your lifestyle is not going to fly with Christians.

Moderator cut: personal remarks

[alicenevada]

Originally Posted by DayoftheLord

I think granny made some good points. I've been following along, trying to stay out of the forum for certain reasons, but it appears that certain reasons have gone away for the moment. So here I am to offer my 2 pennies worth once again.

I'm no Biblical scholar, but you are right, there will be plenty of offerings as to what the 144,000 is referring to. The only people I know of who take this literal is Jehovah's Witnesses and I certainly don't want to get into that. Needless to say I don't agree.

There are many things in the Bible that are symbolic, and the 144,000 is one of them. I've read your posts, and you are using whatever you can to justify your sins. Twisting scriptures to justify your lifestyle is not going to fly with Christians.

You are searching, but not for God. You're searching for someone to agree with you, and when they don't you hurl insults and twist scriptures. You're baiting, and there are rules against that here at CD.

I am a JW. Not here to discuss or debate my beliefs but just so Brian understands, JW think that 144,000 are going to heaven, yes, but we believe there are many who will survive to life on a paradise earth. So you don't have to be in that number to receive life.

[brianrees]

Originally Posted by Marianinark

Quote:


This post reminds me of the the parable of the two men who went up to the temple to pray. The above quote is very similar to what the Pharisee "prayed with himself"..." God, I thank You that I am not like other men-extortioners,unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all I possess."
And the Tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat on his breast, saying, " God, be merciful to me a sinner!"

Jesus said about the tax collector: " I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself shall be humbled, and he who humbles himself shall be exalted."

Scriptures from the NKJV, Luke 18.11-14

Sorry to be difficult as well as arrogant, but there is a significant difference between my brief summery of my lifestyle and the boastful prayer of the Pharisee.

First, I don't claim to be remotely HOLY, and have no need whatsoever to compare myself to anyone else, as the Pharisee did.

Secondly, our Pharisee was obviously filled with the desire for divine preference, for a reward in heaven for his virtuousness.

Not so, me. If I choose to do good it is because it is the RIGHT THING TO DO under all circumstances, otherwise I am contributing to the misery in the world, and goodness knows there is enough of that wherever we look. Needless to say, when I make a mistake, as we all do, I know it will rebound on me in some shape or form, and I have to deal with the consequences myself.

I think it is important to look to our inner strength in this way, rather than rely on a capricious god to absolve us from all blame (if he's in the right mood). If not, why were we given such inner-strength in the first place? Makes no sense to me, sorry... So call me 'proud', if you really must go on finding fault.

.

[grannynancy]

No-I am just saying IF you are not proclaiming to be a Christian it is not relevant to the intent of the original post, but I see your point in that it drives Christians to be intolerant of who you are. But why not post on the relationship betwen Christians and homosexuals if you are not dealing with your own Christianity and salvation? This is in the "Christian" section and is a thread concerning a "Christian" topic. Any Christian believes they are "broken" and do not have within themselves the power to be "fixed"

Nevertheless, here we have yet another dilemma. That is, you may be forced to choose between believing in the Book of Revelation, or having to disregard its contents.

I refer, of course, to chapters 7 and 14 where Saint John names a very specific figure, 144,000 as being the total number of souls who will be admitted to Heaven after the Day of Judgement.

I was most certainly taught that Revelation was NOT to be taken literally - that particular style of writing is rich and very symbolic and somewhat codified. Many seem to focus on that book and that book alone and ignore the incredible messages brought to us by Christ in the Gospels.

You should also look that I have posted a link in the homosexual high school thread that looks at the interpreations used to come condemning homoexuality. As I have stated in this thread - the ancient languages did NOT have a word for homosexuality and this can also be interpreted as a form of ritual rape. Jesus also talks about "born eunuchs" what the heck is a "born eunuch"? It is a very interesting piece - defiitely worth a Bible study.

I am a Christian. I am not a fundamentalist. I am not a literalist. To some that means I am not a Christian - hence my interest in "when is Christian not a Christian?"

[Fundamentalist]

Originally Posted by brianrees

Yes, Sir, I do think I am a good person by and large, although I sometimes have a bit of a temper when I see injustice. Justified anger, you might call it. (Even Jesus lost it at least once, so we're told, as when he kicked the moneylenders from the temple).

I am not. I am a foul, disgusting, vile, despicable human being because I have lied, stolen, blasphemed my God's name, hated my brother etc...I have broken every commandment and I will always fall short in front the glory of God. Anger is ok as long as it is not out of control, spiteful, hateful.

That's a very long way, however, from saying I am a PERFECT individual - I daresay none such exists. I guess you will say Jesus was perfect, but unfortunately for me, I don't share his advantage of being half man and half god.

No we don't but Jesus who is fully man and fully God is righteous and it is through His blood that God can see you as righteous as well, that's what "are you saved" means, saved from God's wrath, God is angry at us because of sin, sin is exceedingly sinful and He hates sin and He must punish sin because He is just but Jesus took our place and paid the fine, Jesus took the punishment on Him from God that was meant for us.

I believe the overall effect of my life on this planet will have been a beneficial one to my fellows, and in that sense, a good one. The reason I am fairly confident in this is not because I lack humbleness, but because I always choose to do the good in every situation, which is, of course, not always easy. Religious people, I would say, display a lack of humility when they claim a monopoly on right and wrong.

God says, that all our good works of of filthy rags so therefore there is nothing you can do to enter heaven. It's all Him. no one can balance their good vs their bad. Would we really want that anyway?
I can't speak for all religious people but Yes! we know the truth, and we are messengers of the truth. You seem to forget that we are bound by this truth as well- being a Christian is difficult- moreso for others. More and more this world is becoming post modern where truth is relative,well Christians say, truth is absolute and it is the word of God. The question still remains, "Is it the truth" regardless if you think we lack humility, "Is it the truth"?

Surely, no-one can ask more of themselves than that, even if later hindsight shows that another course of action would have been more desirable. But if one's MOTIVES are sound, as I think mine tend to be, there is no room for blame.

God says, we are ALL guilty no one is without excuse. We are guilty because we broke His laws.

I am, therefore PROUD to be a human being, because there is good in everyone, and we should focus on that positive fact, I believe, as opposed to always lamenting our 'sinful' (negative) nature, as you do.

Imagine the human race as a group of beautiful white "wooly" sheep, then that night it snows heavily leaving 6 inches of white snow behind, well that snow represents God. Now look at the once white sheep against the backdrop of the snow, the sheep do not look white anymore and that's how it is with God. We are "good" by our standards but when matched up to perfect righteousness we are dirty like those sheep and then we can see that we are sinful and in need of a savior. Find the best person on the planet and put a microchip in their head that records everything they did or thought in the past year and then upload it onto the internet. I doubt that "good" person will ever show their face again.
We are sinful by nature from birth, no one needs to teach a baby to misbehave.

and that, I maintain, is not arrogance, but simply a healthy awareness of our basic human dignity - a much maligned concept, especially in your biblical view of things.

You are a humanist, We Christians have a firmer grasp on humanity than most humanist/ secularist think. We have seen the plight of humanity with and without religion. It is true we Christians have made alot of mistakes but that is because we are human, God's way remains perfect and always will be but make no mistake religion is the least of this world's problems.

The 20th century has seen man move furthest away from God than any other century and it has brought about marxism, fascism, nazism, atheism, darwinism, communism. In the 20th century alone over 200,000,000 have been murdered by their governments.

[Fundamentalist]

Originally Posted by brianrees

Hanging children in the name of religious law is what I call insensitive and unfair. Sorry if these sort of facts offend you, but I tell you, my friend, if I saw you being dragged off to the gallows for any reason, I know I would do everything in my power to help you.

You have HAD gay friends you say? I wonder why you no longer have....

Christianity would NEVER do that, Any Christian who would do that IS NOT a Christian. It goes against the fiber the very core of God's word.

[Towhee]

Moderator cut: personal attacks

Also, as it has already been said...the title is misleading. All Christians will go to heaven..if they remain faithful to the end. I believe the OP meant all "Christians", meaning all who call themselves Christians but are not. I am sorry to say, there are many who fall into that category, but they are not necessarily those who (rightly) speak out against sin,( including homosexual activities). Speaking out, and warning against all sins, are Christian 'duties', (if you will....). We are told to do so. It is for the good of the sinner. It is because we hope to save the sinner and help him/her attain eternity in heaven. Anyone who condones sin is not a Christian.

[World Citizen]

Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do...

[Ilene Wright]

Originally Posted by alicenavada

I am a JW. Not here to discuss or debate my beliefs but just so Brian understands, JW think that 144,000 are going to heaven, yes, but we believe there are many who will survive to life on a paradise earth. So you don't have to be in that number to receive life.

I know Alice, and I didn't mean any disrespect. I'm glad you elaborated on the 144,000.