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Old 10-17-2008, 08:21 PM
 
7,788 posts, read 10,460,051 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reformed Liberal View Post


"children of God"

Is June a child of God?
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Old 10-17-2008, 08:46 PM
 
3,627 posts, read 12,430,881 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renriq02 View Post
the bible clearly states what a person must do to be born again.

taking sacraments is not one of them.
My point was that this "born again" requirement complete with its "how it has to be" is based on reading between the lines of ONE biblical verse and that the meaning of what does it mean to be born again can vary among other people - for some Baptism is that rebirth. Right or wrong.

FWIW, If you think Baptism is not important then take the quote in its fuller context:

3In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."


4"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"
5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.

6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You[ must be born again.' 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."


Your statement "taking sacraments is not one of them" is demeaning to my faith. As I said I truly believe that the Spirit of God comes to us during these Sacraments, which are always when two or more are gathered in his name and have been central to the earliest days of the Church - even before it became formalized, even before the first Council of Nicaea ...........I don't know whether this interpretation which gives me comfort is "right or wrong" but I can say that I feel I have felt God's presence at those times so for me, that is enough. I do not proscribe that YOU need to believe this. I am not God. I really believe God comes to us where we are. God comes to June but it may be in a totally different way than to you or to me.

Please, do not presume to know the mind of God. That was what went wrong when Eve let the serpent decieve her [I am not a literalist but what a great story of our fallen state with God - our desire eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil instead of simply being God's beloved creatures----]

We have plenty to deal with without determining who is and is not going to "heaven" ...and who is believing "properly".. I am not even sure "heaven" as our modern visions perceive is even all that significant in the Bible other than as a connectedness with God. The Kingdom of God can be here and now. There are even different ways to look at Heaven and Hell than those dreamed up by some 13th century poet.

Rather than presuming to understand God's plans for us after we are dead, let us focus on trying to live his life in the here and now. And [this goes for ALL of us: ]

From Luke 6:37 37"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.
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Old 10-17-2008, 08:49 PM
 
Location: Pikeville, Ky.
13,468 posts, read 21,230,304 times
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June, God is in all of us, me, you, Denverian, Weather, He doesn't seperate us into religions and doctrines and lifestyles..He created us all different for his own reasons, and put a part of himself within each of us..It is up to us to seek his presence..I really believe that many of us, you included, have put on the christlike qualities without consciously knowing it..You may call it good morals, I call it doing the work of the Father, although you have not met him personally

I have read and studied the bible, but my belief, my strength, my guidance and my peace comes from my personal relationship with God, because He has given me his Word (Christ) and He is written in my soul., in my heart, and in the way I live, and in the way I treat others..He gives me a peace that I don't get from proclaiming that God lives within the pages of a book..
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Old 10-17-2008, 08:50 PM
 
Location: southern california
55,237 posts, read 72,528,935 times
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actually its a little more complex than that. christ was dead at 33. most of his disciples like him followed a young and violent death. he died for his faith and so did they what does that say about me and you. as to the godless, you are already dead. other than that im just fine. here kitty kitty.
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Old 10-17-2008, 09:32 PM
 
Location: Charlotte, North Carolina
5,137 posts, read 15,112,065 times
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I wrote that 'sacraments have NOTHING to do with salvation', and that is correct.
Taking sacraments will not get you into heaven.
I didn't say nothing about YOU(Granny)...I was speaking about sacraments.
I'm not sure why you got 'offended'.

Baptism is ANOTHER thing which IS commanded, but again sacraments have nothing to do with either baptism or salvation.

I would highly recommend that you look up what sacraments came from as it is not biblical.

The Lord's Supper = Passover. Nothing 'new' was initiated.

If most people understand how Passover was celebrated then they would realize what Paul is speaking about in Corinthians.
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Old 10-17-2008, 09:55 PM
 
Location: Maryland
3,540 posts, read 5,966,555 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th View Post
June honestly has no idea whether Jesus knows her. If He does, he hasn't let June know. June, generally speaking, has a fairly good grasp on what she knows and what she doesn't know. Most of us do. However, for someone who has posted the querie "How do we know what we know?" in the past on these threads, (as regards such matters as "faith" and "belief") June obviously has some sort of invested interest in how people know what they claim and uphold so strongly to know. June would assume, based on all she has read, (here) and been told (here) that you can't remove Jesus from the equation of "God."

Therefore, you tell me: If your omnipotent, omnipresent God exists, and if Jesus was God's way of showing His divine love for all mankind, then does Jesus know June? It's a real question.

--However, if yours or anyone else's answer to the above ^ is "no," or if it comes with caveats, or if it comes with contingencies, or if it comes with "do's" or "don'ts" or if it comes with "must do's," or if it comes with needing "transformation," or if it comes with "clarification," or if it comes with "contradiction," or if it comes with edification, or if it comes with edicts of anything other than that which June knows, or boldy attempts to deny one note of what June hears, then please:

June genuinelly, respectfully, and most of all authetically asks you to please:

Don't reply.

If your God does not know June, then you (obviously) need not reply. --Because June is obviously not going to heaven. It is obviously not an option for her. --Because "He will say 'away from me you evil doers; I never knew you.' " I accept that.


--Because June would much rather hope to hear one barely inaudible note as she looks out her window, looking to see whether she really heard the geese flying overhead...

And because you don't have the right to define that. You don't have the right to hold anyone else's heart in your own hands.


And risk breaking it in the process...


"What defines a Christian?" --I have no idea what a Christian is anymore. I honestly don't.



Take gentle care.
I believe Jesus knows you better than anyone. And He loves you with a perfect Love.

As a matter of fact, I believe if you were the only person in the world, Jesus would have given his life for you alone.

We all, with our limited imagination, can only imagine what Jesus looks like, or sound like. But I imagine, for you, He is a flock of geese.
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Old 10-17-2008, 09:56 PM
 
3,627 posts, read 12,430,881 times
Reputation: 2682
Quote:
Originally Posted by renriq02 View Post
I wrote that 'sacraments have NOTHING to do with salvation', and that is correct.
Taking sacraments will not get you into heaven.
I didn't say nothing about YOU(Granny)...I was speaking about sacraments.
I'm not sure why you got 'offended'.

Baptism is ANOTHER thing which IS commanded, but again sacraments have nothing to do with either baptism or salvation.

I would highly recommend that you look up what sacraments came from as it is not biblical.

The Lord's Supper = Passover. Nothing 'new' was initiated.

If most people understand how Passover was celebrated then they would realize what Paul is speaking about in Corinthians.
renriq02 - when you wrote that in direct opposition to my statement -[which you quoted in its entirety] which NEVER said that sacraments were necessary for salvation - only a different interpretation of the verse in regards to being "born again".

You have a very different understanding of much of the same Bible as do I. This thing about the Cup being the NEW covenant in his blood was "nothing new"? I have certainly partipated in a few Seder suppers and have an understanding of the Passover so I am missing your revelation in this regards. Do you know more than "most people?"

The Bible does not define the word Sacrament, neither does it proscribe HOW one is to be "born again" And, I also can't find a single place in the Bible that condemns homosexuality. Really. It is all reading between the lines. Was the crime of Sodom and Gomorrah homosexualtiy or was it that they raped unwilling strangers?
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Old 10-17-2008, 10:04 PM
 
Location: Charlotte, North Carolina
5,137 posts, read 15,112,065 times
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1. Jesus was celebrating Passover
2. If you have celebrated seder than you would understand it was always a HUGE FEAST.
3. Why would Paul say ...


20When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.
21For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. 22What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? what shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.

Do you think people were coming to church to eat a little cracker and just a cup of wine?

My point for 'nothing new' is stating that Jesus was not teaching something new as He was celebrating Passover. Nothing new as in celebrating every weekend when it's only celebrated during Passover. If you celebrated Passover then you would know there are 4 cups .... and one cup being a special one which I'm not going to go in details here as it's a different subject.

You need to continue reading the bible as it is against homosexuality.
It says in MANY PLACES which we already discussed in another thread.
Do you know more than "most people?"



Quote:
Originally Posted by grannynancy View Post
renriq02 - when you wrote that in direct opposition to my statement - which NEVER said that sacraments were necessary for salvation - only a different interpretation of the verse in regards to being "born again".

You have a very different understanding of much of the same Bible as do I. This thing about the Cup being the NEW covenant in his blood was "nothing new"? I have certainly partipated in a few Seder suppers and have an understanding of the Passover so I am missing your revelation in this regards. Do you know more than "most people?"

The Bible does not define the word Sacrament, neither does it proscribe HOW one is to be "born again" And, I also can't find a single place in the Bible that condemns homosexuality. Really. It is all reading between the lines. Was the crime of Sodom and Gomorrah homosexualtiy or was it that they raped unwilling strangers?
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Old 10-17-2008, 10:10 PM
 
Location: Charlotte, North Carolina
5,137 posts, read 15,112,065 times
Reputation: 1008
So you guys dont know what it is to be 'born again'?

3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
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Old 10-17-2008, 10:53 PM
 
Location: Purgatory
396 posts, read 731,632 times
Reputation: 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by renriq02 View Post
the bible clearly states what a person must do to be born again.

taking sacraments is not one of them.
Um...seeing as how Jesus said, "Do this in Memory of Me" at the last supper, I'd say that taking the sacriments (which communion happens to be one of them along with baptism) is one of the things that we are to do. Did you miss that part of the Bible?
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