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You cannot separate faith & obedience. They flow in absolute union together!
Romans 16:26
"But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for obedience faith."
Do you mean obedience vs. faith only, as you wrote?
Or something else.
Because if it's either one or the other, I have to go with faith.
Don't you mean that faith in Christ should lead to obedience?
Do you believe obedience has saving power?
Faith without obedience is a dead counterfeit faith.
Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Or as James said - You say you have faith? Show me your faith without obedience - by my obedience I will show you my faith.
"Even so faith, if it have not works, is dead in itself.
Yea, a man will say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith apart from thy works, and I by my works will show thee my faith. "
Well said Harold. "Faith" is a VERB....it is an ACTION word, not just some spiritual mumbo jumbo. Just as the original concept from the Hebrew "Shema" which while read as "HEAR" as in Hear O Israel it is correctly translated as "Hear with the intent to DO". As for tongues it is abundantly clear in scripture that speaking in a tounge MUST either be a "Known language" or be interpreted.....or else it is from HaSatan. PERIOD. These folks that gibber jabber mumbo jumbo are inhabited by the wrong spirit if they endulge in that drivel. Writhing on the floor barking like dogs. Sheesh get a grip......most certainly has NOTHING to do with speaking in a tounge discussed in scripture. Nothing like counterfeit to do it's thing. The anti Messiah will have his way with many if that junk keeps up.
I understand. I just disagree that obedience saves. Salvation, in my view, was bought and paid for COMPLETELY on the cross by Jesus' blood. My obedience to Him and His teachings is the fruit that I 'really' believe, but it does not save me.[/quote]
Alpha is it not true that what you really mean is that your disobedience cannot cause you to be lost?
HK
Rom 2:8 but unto them that are factious, and obey not the truth, but obey unrighteousness, shall be wrath and indignation,
Rom 2:13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
Very fair Harold. Indeed the Obedience is NOT what saves us. We don't do it because we HAVE to.....we do it because we GET to. It was well put that it is the fruit of your faith. Too many are paranoid that one is insinuating that the works save you. We certainly aren't saying THAT but that obedience is EVIDENCE of your faith.
You cannot separate faith & obedience. They flow in absolute union together!
Romans 16:26
"But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for obedience faith."
Please note: "the" and "of" are not in the Koine.
Yes - faith and obedience are two sides of the same coin. Remove either one and it is a counterfeit.
There have been a few threads going around about whether Christians today should obey the laws in the OT. This thread to me sums up the difference between having strict laws vs principles to follow.
In the OT, the Isrealites had strict that laws that REQUIRED obedience. Of course that was necessary to keep the nation pure for Jesus to come through. However, Jesus hung all those laws on 2 principles...love for God and love for your neighbor.
We are required now, to demonstrate our faith on principles instead of strict laws..."a circumcision off the heart". Sometimes is easier to follow a spelled out strict law, than priniciples with which you really have to use discernment.
Let's not get carried away once more. Yahushua stated the most important of the Spiritual and Civil law's to observe, He NEVER said NOT To follow the rest of the covenant commandments. They ARE to be observed. He said (and I'll repeat it for the umpteenth time) in Matthew 5 that NONE of the law was being removed. The ONLY law done away with on the tree was "The Law of Sin and Death" (Rom 8). Lets not get crazy here and be blotting out law that is STILL very much in effect for believers.
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Too many are paranoid that one is insinuating that the works save you. We certainly aren't saying THAT but that obedience is EVIDENCE of your faith.
