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Old 10-20-2008, 06:45 AM
 
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JN Harris, your special places almost sound like the tiered strcuture of purgatory.

What does the story of the prodigal son tell us in light of this?

Can we not wrap our arms around the concept that we are ALL unworthy to enter the kingdom of God and that the repentant murderer is as welcome as the saint through God's grace?
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Old 10-20-2008, 07:17 AM
 
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I suppose it all depends on how you look at the entire context of what the Bible teaches. For myself, it is a matter of punctuation. Move the comma over behind the word "today", instead of in front of it, and it takes on a whole new meaning. Remember that there wasn't no punctuation marks in the Greek language.

Luk 23:43 (how it is written)
And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

Luk 23:43
And He said to him, "Truly I say to you today, you shall be with Me in Paradise."


See how much it changes the outcome?
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Old 10-20-2008, 08:10 AM
 
Location: NW Arkansas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
I suppose it all depends on how you look at the entire context of what the Bible teaches. For myself, it is a matter of punctuation. Move the comma over behind the word "today", instead of in front of it, and it takes on a whole new meaning. Remember that there wasn't no punctuation marks in the Greek language.

Luk 23:43 (how it is written)
And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

Luk 23:43
And He said to him, "Truly I say to you today, you shall be with Me in Paradise."

See how much it changes the outcome?

Why would Jesus even have said the "today" if it was before the comma? It wouldn't even make sense that way....would He have said "Truely I say to you tomorrow, you shall be with Me in Paradise"?
Now, if He had said, "Truely I say to you, tomorrow you shall be with Me in Paradise", that makes sense, the same as the original does with "today" following the comma.
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Old 10-20-2008, 08:43 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marianinark View Post
Why would Jesus even have said the "today" if it was before the comma? It wouldn't even make sense that way....would He have said "Truely I say to you tomorrow, you shall be with Me in Paradise"?
Now, if He had said, "Truely I say to you, tomorrow you shall be with Me in Paradise", that makes sense, the same as the original does with "today" following the comma.
Jesus also said the same thing only for those who do not believe. That is why the thief was told he was in Paradise today, because of faith in Jesus. Paradise (salavation) or damnation is determined by faith, at this very moment.

John 3:18
"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."

2 Corinthians 6:2
For he says, "In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of salvation I helped you." I tell you, now is the time of God's favor, now is the day of salvation.
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Old 10-20-2008, 09:18 AM
 
Location: South Carolina
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marianinark View Post
Why would Jesus even have said the "today" if it was before the comma? It wouldn't even make sense that way....would He have said "Truely I say to you tomorrow, you shall be with Me in Paradise"?
Now, if He had said, "Truely I say to you, tomorrow you shall be with Me in Paradise", that makes sense, the same as the original does with "today" following the comma.
Agree. I mean really. Let's just remove the comma and the word "today" altogether. Then it says exactly the same thing.

There's no denying that the thief went or will go to be with Jesus, which is the basic message.
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Old 10-20-2008, 10:56 AM
 
Location: NC
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Hi, evidently, this is a type of expression/way of speaking which was common in the Hebrew language and it was used for solemn emphasis. Some Bible scholars do believe that the comma is to be after the word "today" in light of this and in light of the context of the passage.

The Verb "to say," when followed by hoti, introduces the ipsissima verba of what is said; and answers to our quotation marks. So here (in Luke 23:43), in the absence of hoti (="that"), there may be a doubt as to the actual words included in the dependent clause. But the doubt is resolved (1) by the common Hebrew idiom, "I say unto thee this day," which is constantly used for very solemn emphasis; as well as (2) by the usage observable in other passages where the verb is connected with the Gr. semeron= to-day

"Today" (Luke 23:43), by E. W. Bullinger

today=this day

Examples:
Genesis 25:33
And Jacob said, Swear to me this day; and he sware unto him: and he sold his birthright unto Jacob.



Exodus 34:11
Observe thou that which I command thee this day: behold, I drive out before thee the Amorite, and the Canaanite, and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, and the Hivite, and the Jebusite.



Quote:
There's no denying that the thief went or will go to be with Jesus, which is the basic message.
I agree that the important thing inmo is that the thief was going to be with the Lord, but I think that the QP was whether or not the thief went straight to heaven then. Now, paradise could have referred to heaven according to some, but some believe that it refers to the kingdom that the Father gave Jesus. Bible study is so much fun!~


Quote:
In John 20: 17 we read when Jesus appeared to Mary Magdalene after His resurrection, "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father..."

He later allows the disciples to touch him, indicated that He had at that point ascended and come back. Where then was Jesus for the three days before His resurrection if not in Heaven?


I think that Jesus was in the grave, His body and soul but that His Spirit was with the Father. I don't believe that the spirit is conscious. Then the Father raised Him from the dead. I think that He figuratively went and preached to the spirits in prison meaning to me those who had been disobedient in the days of Noah, because the good news was for all men. .



Quote:
Peter 3:19-20 teaches that by His death, "he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah..."





God bless.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 10-20-2008 at 11:12 AM..
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Old 10-20-2008, 11:08 AM
 
Location: NW Arkansas
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Also important is that the thief on the cross was before the New Testament came into being. A Testament does not become valid before the testator dies!
After Jesus was resurrected the New Testament begin. It began 40 days later, on the Day of Pentecost. There is no record of what took place between the cross and Pentecost, except for the things that Jesus the Christ did, and taught. How the laws were observed in that period is God's business, not mine.
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Old 10-20-2008, 11:15 AM
 
Location: All around the world.....
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The word expresses that Jesus said "this day you will be with me in paradise"
From that I gather that he did go when Jesus went, since he went alongside Him
No one knows but The Father" in Heaven,
And I don't think it matters, there will be enough concern assuring that we who claim to follow Christ
go to heaven.
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Old 10-20-2008, 11:33 AM
 
Location: NC
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Just sharing the whole sentence, Yhwhshalomjr which is:
And He said to him Truly I say to you today you shall be with Me in Paradise.

I did not put in the comma, or quotation marks since the original language did not have any punctuation marks. We can't leave out the first part of the sentence that Jesus said, because it affects the meaning of the sentence depending on where the comma is placed. Don't you think this is important? Not quarreling, just pointing something out God bless.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 10-20-2008 at 11:54 AM..
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Old 10-20-2008, 11:34 AM
 
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Default You have missed the point of the OP

Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
That all depends on whose definition of heaven we are talking about.

Since LDS believe that good works and keeping the law are required then no.

If we are talking about the way the Bible teaches ...
1. the way Christ taught - by grace through faith not by works Ephesians 2:8
2. that Jesus is the only way to the Father (not the temple) John 14:6
3. there is no other gospel that is needed for salvation Galatians 1:9
4. Jesus was our subsitute for sin, that no other requirements are necessary (not our example as the LDS teaches) Hebrews 7:27
5. Because we are clothed by the blood of Jesus, we are now holy, perfect in the eyes of Heavenly Father as He demands Hebrews 10:14


.....then yes. Those who believe that are children of God and are invited into heaven. Those who do not, are thown out into outer darkness, even if he trys to sneek his way into heaven:

Matthew 22:12-14
'Friend,' he asked, 'how did you get in here without wedding clothes?' The man was speechless.

13"Then the king told the attendants, 'Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' 14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
Twin,

You have missed the point of the OP.

I believe the thief is saved. If you understood LDS doctrine better, something you dedicate a great deal of time fighting against in your many posts, you would know that this is not a contradiction of our beliefs.

The question is more directed towards the state of the spirit after death. The Savior told the thief he would join Him in paradise... I do not believe paradise to be the same place as heaven.

This may seem like only a trivial matter.... but I don't believe it is because it has extensive implications regarding the profound love and grace of Jesus Christ... which can be covered later.

Still, thanks for submitting your thoughts. The enlightenment your opinions offer is always welcome.

J. Harris
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