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Old 10-20-2008, 12:41 PM
 
Location: NW Arkansas
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I agree that Paradise and Heaven are two differant places. Heaven is the final dwelling place following the judgement.
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Old 10-20-2008, 12:44 PM
 
Location: All around the world.....
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Default Religious

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown View Post
Just sharing the whole sentence, Yhwhshalomjr which is:
And He said to him, "Truly I say to you today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

I did not put in the comma. We can't leave out the first part of the sentence that Jesus said, because it affects the meaning of the sentence depending on where the comma is placed. Not quarreling, just pointing something out Don't you think this is important? God bless.

My sister in Christ;
I ask for forgiveness for anyone, that I may have mislead in my post,
I forgot to add the fact that I was paraphrasing which makes a huge difference
So I will do this to rectify the matter for those who do not know the scriptures: below three versions
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Luke 23:43 (KJV)
King James Version
Truly I say to you, Today you will be with me in Paradise.
43 and Jesus said to him, `Verily I say to thee, To-day with me thou shalt be in the paradise.'
Luke 23:43 (YLT)
Young's Literal Translation
Luke 23:43 (BBE)
Basic Bible English
I hope that this will clarify my intent
God Bless You
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Old 10-20-2008, 12:52 PM
 
178 posts, read 278,747 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grannynancy View Post
JN Harris, your special places almost sound like the tiered strcuture of purgatory.

What does the story of the prodigal son tell us in light of this?

Can we not wrap our arms around the concept that we are ALL unworthy to enter the kingdom of God and that the repentant murderer is as welcome as the saint through God's grace?
Grannynancy,

I agree, we all must have the grace of God. Thank you for your input.

Regarding the prodigal son... many points are taught. Two I consider to be particularly important. First, he was forgiven of everything and accepted again by his father. Second, he wasted his inheritance. The brother who followed the father still had his inheritance whereas the prodigal son didn't, even though they were both viewed as clean and fully accepted by their father. This second point is often looked over and ignored by many Christians because they feel that acknowledging it threatens the truths regarding the grace of Christ, which we all believe in.

Regarding the grace of Christ, it truly is extensive and marvelous. The Book of Mormon has a wonderful account of an entire group of people that were murderers (primarily due to the culture in which they had been brought up) who were changed and saved through Christ. Alma 24:5-26. Alma 24

I believe the grace and love of Christ to be far more extensive and penetrating than most of us even realize. I also believe that we will all be held accountable for our actions here on earth according to the knowledge and light each of us have been given.

I admit, the OP may not have been entirely clear as to intention as many believe paradise and heaven to be the same. However, part of the point of the OP was to draw this distinction as the implications are profound (as I hope to be able to share later), teaching us even more regarding the profound love and mercy of God.

Thanks again for sharing your beliefs,

J. Harris
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Old 10-20-2008, 12:53 PM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 13,827,213 times
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Quote:
My sister in Christ;
I ask for forgiveness for anyone, that I may have mislead in my post,
I forgot to add the fact that I was paraphrasing which makes a huge difference
So I will do this to rectify the matter for those who do not know the scriptures
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.


Luke 23:43 (KJV)

Truly I say to you, Today you will be with me in Paradise.
43 and Jesus said to him, `Verily I say to thee, To-day with me thou shalt be in the paradise.'
Luke 23:43 (YLT)

I hope that this will clarify my intent
God Bless You
Luke 23:43 (BBE)

Thank you, Ywhshalomjr. God bless.
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Old 10-20-2008, 12:56 PM
 
Location: among the chaos
2,136 posts, read 4,307,047 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JNHarris View Post
I believe the grace and love of Christ to be far more extensive and penetrating than most of us even realize. I also believe that we will all be held accountable for our actions here on earth according to the knowledge and light each of us have been given.

teaching us even more regarding the profound love and mercy of God.


YouTube - Thief - Third Day

One of my favorite stories of salvation and the grace and mercy of God. We should put no constraints on the grace and mercy of God.
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Old 10-20-2008, 01:07 PM
 
3,553 posts, read 4,376,074 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marianinark View Post
I agree that Paradise and Heaven are two differant places. Heaven is the final dwelling place following the judgement.
After rereading the verse, analyzing the Greek, you seem to be correct. Paradise is actually different, it would seem.

Paradise or paradeisos according to the lexicon:

1) among the Persians a grand enclosure or preserve, hunting ground, park, shady and well watered, in which wild animals, were kept for the hunt; it was enclosed by walls and furnished with towers for the hunters
2) a garden, pleasure ground
a) grove, park
3) the part of Hades which was thought by the later Jews to be the abode of the souls of pious until the resurrection: but some understand this to be a heavenly paradise
4) the upper regions of the heavens. According to the early church Fathers, the paradise in which our first parents dwelt before the fall still exists, neither on the earth or in the heavens, but above and beyond the world

So, looking at this, and taken from the original word pardec, which is where we get our word for "park", these were sometimes an enclosed garden or park. This is interesting to say the least. I wonder if this is where Catholics get purgatory from?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marianinark View Post
Why would Jesus even have said the "today" if it was before the comma? It wouldn't even make sense that way....would He have said "Truely I say to you tomorrow, you shall be with Me in Paradise"?
Now, if He had said, "Truely I say to you, tomorrow you shall be with Me in Paradise", that makes sense, the same as the original does with "today" following the comma.
Agreed, thank you for enlightening me.
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Old 10-20-2008, 01:20 PM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 13,827,213 times
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Here is an article relating to the lack of use of commas in the original manuscripts of the scriptures. I agree with the assessment made by Ron Rhoades that I found on another thread. God bless.

A View From the Catholic Trenches: Even the Commas Count
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Old 10-20-2008, 03:22 PM
 
2,945 posts, read 4,775,748 times
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Quote:
Quote:
In John 20: 17 we read when Jesus appeared to Mary Magdalene after His resurrection, "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father..."

He later allows the disciples to touch him, indicated that He had at that point ascended and come back. Where then was Jesus for the three days before His resurrection if not in Heaven?
I believe he was dead...in the grave. How could he be a sacrifice for our sins if he didn`t really die in the truest sense of the word. I don`t believe that he just passed from one existence to another but that he actually died. Just my thoughts.
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Old 10-20-2008, 03:35 PM
 
Location: among the chaos
2,136 posts, read 4,307,047 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spm62 View Post
I believe he was dead...in the grave. How could he be a sacrifice for our sins if he didn`t really die in the truest sense of the word. I don`t believe that he just passed from one existence to another but that he actually died. Just my thoughts.

From the Nicene Creed:

...For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father...

From the Apostles Creed:

Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.

He descended into hell.

The third day He arose again from the dead.
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Old 10-20-2008, 03:43 PM
 
2,945 posts, read 4,775,748 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weatherologist View Post
From the Nicene Creed:

...For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father...

From the Apostles Creed:

Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.

He descended into hell.

The third day He arose again from the dead.
I agree...He was born of the virgin...was crucified...died..was buried...went to the grave or heart of the earth...the Father raised him up on the third day...and he is now seated at the right hand of the Father.
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